Generative Search Is Disrupting Google Ads- What Marketers Need to Know

Episode Description

In this episode, Frederick Vallaeys chats with Greg Finn and Christine “Shep” Zirnheld, the voices behind Marketing O’Clock, one of the most popular digital marketing news shows around. They dive into the latest trends in PPC, how Google’s strategies are changing, and the growing impact of generative AI on the world of digital advertising.

Here’s what you’ll learn:

• Google’s record-breaking Q4 2024 revenue and its impact on advertisers
• Generative AI: Hype vs. reality in PPC automation
• The future of Google Ads: From manual controls to PMax and beyond
• Diversifying your skills in an AI-driven world
• Strategies for safeguarding your career in digital marketing

Episode Takeaways

With automation and AI reshaping the PPC landscape, advertisers are facing both exciting opportunities and new challenges. As platforms like Google double down on automated solutions, understanding these shifts is crucial for staying competitive.

In this conversation, Fred, Greg, and Shep elaborate on how advertisers can adapt and thrive amidst these new changes.

1. Google’s big Q4 2024 win and what it means for advertisers

Google recently had its earnings calls for Q4 2024, revealing the highest ever revenue from YouTube and Search. This is a testament to the fact that Google is strategically focused on maximizing ad revenue and advertisers are likely to see higher CPCs and more automation-based models dominating the PPC landscape.

What does this mean for advertisers?

According to Greg and Shep, going forward, advertisers will need to put some thought into diversifying both their skills as well as the platforms they use.

“It’s very important to just diversify your skill set. Google’s future is uncertain and you need to be ready to pivot if you need to. We’ve been experimenting a lot with platforms like Mountain and Spotify. It’s not just PPC anymore” says Shep.

It may also be a good time to lean into AI-based automation for taking care of lower-level tasks and improving overall efficiency. This leaves advertisers with enough bandwidth to focus on strategy, client insights, and cross-platform expertise—all the things that AI cannot replace.

2. Generative AI’s impact on search

Generative AI, like Google’s AI overviews, can fundamentally alter the search experience. And Fred also feels that since generative AI learns continuously and accounts for different factors, it could play a role in bid strategy recommendations, which could help get comprehensive suggestions for ad management.

“I’m somewhat hopeful that if you look at generative AI and you say, like listen here’s my scenario, just tell me what I should do, it is likely to come up with all the possibilities that are a much more comprehensive suite of recommendations” says Fred.

However, it is also important to remember that while AI recommendations might be helpful, you need to understand where they come from and how they can impact your ad performance.

This is where a tool like Optmyzr comes in handy. Optmyzr recommendations favor advertiser performance over maximizing ad spend, meaning advertisers get unbiased suggestions.

“We actually calculate Optmyzr recommendations ourselves, and so they are independent from what Google is recommending. So you may get recommendations that say maybe your budget should be decreased or maybe you should lower your bid because you’re not hitting your cost per acquisition targets.” Fred shared.

3. The future of Google Ads: From manual controls to PMax and beyond

Google is gradually moving away from manual controls to automated solutions like PMax. For advertisers that means less control over their campaigns. Improvements like negative keywords and customer acquisition features may still give some control but the future is more likely to revolve around campaigns fully automated by generative AI.

And since manual control will continue to disappear in favor of automation, it is critical for PPC professionals to adapt to this new way of advertising, focusing on strategy rather than just a tactical approach.

“It’s our job to expand. Maybe it’s not just about going after leads or focusing on top-line ROAS, but we need to really focus on business objectives and take a more strategic approach, shifting away from just tactics.” Greg said.

4. Learning new skills in an AI world

AI tools have definitely added a layer of efficiency to advertiser workflows. It bridges a lot of the gap between technical skills and marketing expertise, allowing even advertisers without any coding knowledge to generate ad scripts.

But, even though AI can be used to do a lot of the heavy lifting, advertisers need to adopt a growth mindset and equip themselves with valuable skills that cannot be replaced by automation. Critical thinking and strategic decision-making will become non-negotiable over the usual, day-to-day tasks.

“It’s not just about automating tasks, it’s about using that saved time to invest in your growth and expand your horizons, and that’s what makes it really exciting. Use ChatGPT to help with keyword research. Use image tools to create assets. Take advantage of it to make your work more efficient.” says Greg.

5. Safeguard your career in digital marketing

The continued growth and integration of AI into our everyday workflows does raise a question: Will AI replace me at work?

This is something that most advertisers struggle with, but it is essential to look at it from a new perspective. Instead of viewing AI as a threat, the key is to familiarize yourselves with these tools and figure out how it can be part of your repertoire and enable you to become better at what you do.

Greg nudges advertisers to understand what AI can’t do and really focus on developing those particular areas to stay competitive in an AI-driven world.

“It’s also important to focus on what AI can’t do. Think about the unique value you can provide your clients—things that automation just can’t replicate. Learning more about your clients, understanding their needs, and offering that personalized service can set you apart.”

Thrive in the age of AI-powered digital marketing

The rise of AI and automation in digital marketing marks a new era for advertisers. While the increasing reliance on AI might take away a lot of the manual control we had, it also opens up doors for advertisers to upskill, adapt, and innovate.

The key is to figure out the delicate balance between automation and human control. Understanding what humans can do that AI cannot and honing in on those skills will be what makes you irreplaceable.

When relying on AI, it is also important to ensure your decisions align with your business goals, not just the ad platform’s revenue targets. Tools like Optmyzr offer unbiased, performance-driven recommendations that help advertisers make smarter choices while maintaining greater control over their campaigns.

Not an Optmyzr customer yet? Now’s the best time to sign up for a full functionality 14-day free trial.

Episode Transcript:

Frederick Vallaeys: Hello and welcome to another episode of PPC Town Hall. My name is Fred Vallaeys. I’m your host. I’m also CEO and co-founder at Optmyzr, a PPC management suite. So for today’s episode, we don’t have just one, but we have two guests and they are both hosts of Marketing O’clock, one of the best places to keep up with PPC news on YouTube.

And we have Greg Finn and we have Christine, a. k. a. Shep. So let’s bring in our guests and let’s get rolling with this episode of PPC Town Hall.

Greg, Shep, good to have you on. Welcome.

Greg Finn: It’s an honor to be on, big time listener, and it’s fantastic to be here with you.

Christine Zirnheld: Thanks for having us.

Frederick Vallaeys: Hey, so tell folks a little bit about the podcast you have, the agency you have, your backgrounds I think many people have probably seen you before, but not everyone.

So let’s do those introductions.

Greg Finn: So I’m Greg Finn and our agency is called Cypress North. And what you had alluded to before was Marketing’o clock. It was sort of we’re trying to make social content. About six years ago and we are making little clips about some things that happen in the news and we’re trying to do like an actual news show Like, like an actual news show, like serious.

And when the cameras weren’t rolling, we were just shoot, shoot, shoot it back and forth and just talk like we normally talk about the topics and be like, this is so dumb. Like why, what, you know, and then Sammy was like recording us at the time was like, this is actually better than your show.

And so we’re like, you know what, this might be better than our show. So we sort of took that personality and trying to bring what people are actually talking about with some of these changes and almost make it a lot cooler for everybody. And so we just, every Friday we break down the news.

Everything that you need to know, Shep and I are PPC people at heart. So it’s really PPC heavy, but we do cover some major SEO stuff. But that’s sort of my take on marketing. What is your take? And what do you do?

Christine Zirnheld: So I have been on the show for about five years now. I’ve been with Cypress North for about six and I cover the PPC lightning round.

So all of the major trending PPC news of the week. And like Greg said, we really try to keep it light. So tell the people what they need to know, but make it really hands on for how they can apply it in their own accounts. And also just- keep it fun. It’s never too serious. So it’s always a good time and we released it on Friday. So, you know, like we have to keep it fun or nobody would be interested on a Friday

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, no, and that’s what I love is it is actually a news show.

So there’s a lot of visuals, there’s a lot of showing what things are and it goes into sort of the nitty gritty small updates and things that aren’t even really updates that Google announced but that you just found. And so it’s it’s a really good way to get that additional level of news. And then obviously the back and forth and just like, is this actually important?

Right. Google may say it’s the biggest thing since sliced bread, but like, what are we actually going to do with it? So those are the conversations that I think are super useful and fun to listen to. So yeah, we’ll put that in the show notes where people can find that podcast. But definitely check it out.

So now on the show, you do talk about some of the Google updates, but you also talk about kind of like the broader Google news. And you know, I don’t want to say Tin Hat conspiracy theories, but those are always fun to talk about, right? So Google recently had their earnings calls. What is your take on what’s happening over at Google?

Greg Finn: I mean, I would just want to go on a record and say that if you go to your couch and look under those cushions, there will be nothing there because the cushions are fully shaken at this point with the revenue, highest revenue ever from search YouTube at high the highest earnings as well.

Revenue, just a really great earnings call. And I haven’t looked at the stock during the day today. I’ve been a little busy, but I would say it’s not surprising. You know, like they are making a lot of smart moves that are really smart for their shareholders and maybe, not as smart for advertisers.

Christine Zirnheld: Yeah, I agree. I think they’re just really trying to squeeze every penny out of advertisers. And unfortunately, it’s like a lot of smart bidding and it will work really well, like when we’re looking at our end results, whether it’s Return on Ad Spend or the CPA for our client. But those CPCs can get pretty high.

So I agree. Unfortunately, I was not surprised at all. Just the way the world is working. So again, good for their shareholders, not necessarily for me.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah. Well, it’s kind of this dual view. It’s in a way good for Google to be successful because it is where we know how to advertise and we kind of know the rules of the game, even if we don’t always like them.

But at the same time, there’s this inkling that, hey, maybe it’s generative AI, a whole different paradigm for how people search and is that going to change the game? Is that going to make Google a little bit less strong in that space or is even the DOJ? Is that going to force some sort of a breakup of Google where it becomes more diversified?

And I don’t know how I feel about that because at the end of the day, it is easier to manage most of your ad spend in one place as opposed to now have to figure out like, oh, there’s one Google for shopping ads and there’s one Google for search ads and like if this is it’s all broken up like that’s actually more work for a lot of us, right?

So I’m not sure that I have strong feelings one way or another because they all come with pros and cons, I think.

Greg Finn: Who really knows what will happen with the verdict? I do think many of the findings, especially the reference to “shaking the cushions” from Jerry Dishler, who was high up at Google Ads at the time, didn’t help their case at all. Seeing some of those fine-tuning measures and the knobs they can turn is also interesting.

I think without some of those factors, they would have been in a better position, but bringing them to light really hurt their case. People have speculated from one extreme to another about what will happen, but we don’t really know.

That said, I imagine there will be something substantial, maybe allowing others to place ads on YouTube or something along those lines. I don’t even know what that will be yet. The findings were ridiculous. Did you read the part where they said you need to be able to opt out of broad match?

Christine Zirnheld: Oh, yeah.

Greg Finn: It’s like, we can already do this, DOJ. Like, that was one of the things that they released in the findings. I’m interested to see what happens.

Christine Zirnheld: I’m really interested too, and I think it highlights the importance of diversifying your skill set. We’re going to talk about that a lot today, but the future of Google is uncertain and nything can change. You need to be ready to pivot, even to completely different platforms.

We’ve been experimenting a lot with Mountain, Spotify, and other digital spaces because it’s not just about PPC anymore. That’s becoming more and more important. And I’m always waiting for that Apple search engine that was rumored a couple of years ago.

Frederick Vallaeys: Even Apple, if you look at the percentage of search spend they control, it’s significant. And it’s not search in the way we typically think about it.

It’s just the App Store search, right? And that actually generates a huge amount of revenue, but there’s very little to manage, just like those universal campaigns from Google and those app campaigns. It’s basically, “Here’s the app, go figure out who might want to click on it and install it,” and that’s the end of it.

I think that also ties into the existential crisis and risk for PPC advertisers. We’ve been accustomed to having so many levels of control. Sure, we can choose our match types, our bid management type like, yeah, you want automated bidding.

Sure, but which flavor and then within that flavor, which of the settings are going to do portfolio are going to bid. There are so many things that we still control that basically kind of safeguard our jobs at some level, because knowing all those levels of nuance, it takes a lot of effort.

I mean, listen, you got to listen to Marketing o’clock. Otherwise you fall behind. And that’s an hour of your week. I mean, as much fun as it may be, that’s still time you got to put in to stay relevant. On the other end of the spectrum, maybe Genie fully automates everything. You just cut Google a big check and tell them how many sales you need.

If you can achieve it, great. There’s the money. Just go and do the thing.

Greg Finn: Yeah. And that’s the Mark Zuckerberg way, right? He had that quote where he’s like, “at some point you’ll just tell us what you want and we’ll just give it to you.” And it’s like I’ve seen meta ads and I know that’s not how it works, but things are getting more automated.

I agree, Fred. Things are complicated, and while Google promotes Performance Max as an easy solution, if your settings aren’t right or you don’t have the right conversions, you can end up doing more harm than good.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, it’s like they say the, there’s this example of Utah, the AI the gen and then the, sorry, what is it? The general, what’s the thing called when AGI.

The thing when the artificial intelligence becomes as smart as humans and it’s generalized. What’s the term again?

Greg Finn: I am not sure what that term is.

Frederick Vallaeys: Okay, well, so there’s the example where you basically tell an AI. Your job is to produce paperclips. And now it starts producing paperclips. And eventually it’s like, well, you know, I’ve built all the paperclips I can.

And maybe my best next course of action is to start killing humans because some of their body parts are going to paperclips. And so, but it’s like this far fetched example, it speaks to goals, right? You want to be very specific about the goals, but you also want to put some boundaries in place. And I think that’s that’s a lot of what we see at my company too.

It’s you know, some of the optimization is now done by the engines. But you want to put those guardrails in place because if you just tell the machine go and get me as many leads as possible. We’ve all seen that go horribly wrong where it’s just like, yeah, thousands of junk leads that you can’t do anything with and all your money is gone.

Now what? So you have to be very precise about those goals and I totally agree with what you’re saying there.

Christine Zirnheld: Especially when you’re talking about Google specifically, I feel like all you need to do is look at the recommendations tab to know that they’re not always keeping your best interest in mind.

They’re making those automated recommendations.

Greg Finn: Yeah, you knew it from the beginning when you see these recommendations load in Ads Editor, and it’s like, oh, I see this recommendation load that says raise budgets. Oh, weird. There’s no recommendation loading that says lower budgets. That’s strange.

Like, why is that? Are you really recommending the right things for me? Because if you would, you would be unbiased. I think there are a lot of those dark patterns and things that probably skew the scale in the platform’s favors.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, with those recommendations, so we took a look at the API level. Specifications of those, what was fascinating was if you’re on manual bidding, it is allowed to tell you to go into TCPA or TROAS, but once you’re on TCPA or TROAS, if the performance is no longer where it needs to be, it is not allowed to recommend going back to manual. Or once you’re in TCPA, itt can never recommend to go to tROAS because those are considered equivalent.

But we all know that tROAS through value based bidding can actually produce better results. It’s sort of that next level of sophistication. And that’s where I’m somewhat hopeful that if you look at generative AI and you say like, listen, here’s my scenario.

Just tell me what I should do and come up with all the possibilities. That is a much more comprehensive suite of recommendations than just a list that was coded by humans, which is like, in case A, B and C, are the allowed next steps, right? But we forgot about, oh, well, things changed, so maybe there should have been another nuance there.

Whereas generative AI can learn that. It’ll pick up on that. And tomorrow it may come back with a different set of recommendations because it is actually a lot smarter than just these logical “if-this-then-that” conditions and that’s an example there of Google recommendations, just not, not allowing you to go back and forth into what’s right.

Greg Finn: On that note, it’s important to know where some of these recommendations that are AI generated are coming from. And Fred, I think it’d be interesting to get your take on this, but Google’s job is really shareholder-driven as we just talked about from you know we just saw the earnings, they are the ones making the recommendations to you.

And obviously, we talked about a couple examples there where there was maybe a recommendation one way, but not the other way. And I think that’s something that’s important and why Optmyzr is still a need and not going away and why you’re kind of leaning into that is because you’re sort of in this unbiased island by yourself, where you are beholden to putting people one way or another or trying to get the most.

You know, per click, you’re trying to do almost the opposite of it. So, it’s good to know where those AI recommendations are coming from.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, exactly. And so that’s an important note. The Optmyzr recommendations, we actually calculate them ourselves. And so they are independent from what Google is recommending.

So you are going to get the thing that says, “Hey, maybe your budget should be decreased, or maybe you should lower your bid because you’re not hitting your cost per acquisition targets.” And like you said, right? So I think sometimes it’s a bit unfair when people say Google is only beholden to the shareholders because that’s a bit of a short term view, right?

And that’s how companies get in trouble. They say, like, listen, let’s shake the cushions for everything that’s in there. But what’s going to happen is you’re going to bankrupt all of your customers in the process. And then what happens next quarter when all those customers have no money left? Right.

And so when I was at Google, it was always these three prongs, right? We have to do right by the advertiser, the publisher on AdSense, as well as the company. And the company by and large represents the shareholders. But so there is a little bit of the balancing of the needs that does have to happen.

But you’re right. And some of the algorithms that are coded or some of the software that is written, like the team may have been told, listen, we need to produce X percent of revenue growth and, you know, go achieve it. However you need to achieve it. And so as much as Google does need advertisers to be successful, I think they often think too much about

The average is right.

So you look at Google’s earnings and okay- revenue is up by X percent, CTR is up by X percent. Okay, that’s great. But nobody cares about the average. Like me as one advertiser, what happened for me? Did you make it work for me? And, and I think that’s where you need that different level of software that specifically takes your interest at heart so that you become disambiguated from the average and you become your own player and your results need to be good.

And maybe that comes at the cost of someone who’s not doing it right and who’s leaving it all to the automation from the ad platform. And just like in the stock market, right?

For every winner, there’s a loser. And on average, we look at the market moving in one direction, but you as an individual advertiser, you want that power to automate for you to have guardrails for you so that you’re going to be the winner in that bigger ecosystem.

Greg Finn: Yeah. And to counterpoint what you just said, I’ve been talking about that for six years on the show.

That you have a golden goose that’s laying these golden eggs and you don’t wanna kill the golden goose. I just feel like over the last five years that goose is hurting, right? And I don’t know when the last time you were at Google was with the three-prong approach, but if it was before 2018 at least.

Yeah, I feel like there was, and we saw it in some of the DLJ stuff, where anyone who’s an advertiser can’t look at that and feel good about it. But I also feel like things are getting better. This year, there have been a lot of changes for Performance Max that have really improved, loosening up the full automation and AI side of things to say, ‘Okay, come Q4, we’ll have some negatives and you can do new customer acquisition.’ Things like that are big.

But it’s tough as an advertiser when you see some of the stuff come out and you think, ‘I knew this was happening.’

Christine Zirnheld: Yeah, I agree. I can see them trying to make advertisers happy, but I mean, when you’re taking away ECPC, how could you try to make advertisers happy?

That’s such a useful tool, especially for smaller businesses, allowing some of that automation while still maintaining a lot of control. But at the same time, they did give us so much more control over PMAX this year, like Greg said. So, it feels like this dance they’re always doing—taking things away and then doing these little things to keep us happy, to keep us coming back.

It’s just kind of crazy. Yeah, no, I totally agree.

Frederick Vallaeys: I think we see this cycle, right? Like we said already, Google Ads has become very complicated, and it’s frustrating for a new advertiser or someone who’s not a professional marketer to figure it out. So then Google says, ‘Okay, let’s dump everything we had. Let’s be more like Facebook, just tell us what you want, tell us how much money you’ve got, and we’ll figure it out.’ That worked on Facebook, and I’m not saying it works well, but it works because that’s always been the way it’s been. Facebook Ads started existing in a world where AI and machine learning were good enough to do some of these things, and so you never had the additional controls. You never expected them.

But with Google, we came from such a manual world where literally every day, everything down to the misspelled variation of your broad match keyword had to be accounted for. If you didn’t put that in, you wouldn’t get the impression, right? Everything was down to the CPC. It was tight control and these massive structures. And Christine, I know you talk about structures in your talks at SMX—how many campaigns do you need and how many ad groups? We’ve been so accustomed to those levels of control.

Then Google says, ‘Okay, let’s throw all of that away. We have something simple, called PMAX. Just tell us a few things, and we’ll take it from here.’ And then our advertiser reflexes kick in, like, ‘Oh, but we used to have negative keywords, and we used to have this and that.’ So we’re really unhappy, and Google slowly gives us those things back. But every time they do, it gets more complicated—there are more levers, and now we’re left with, ‘Ah, this new thing, PMAX, really isn’t that simple.’

And frankly, how many people have actually figured out PMAX? You either hear people say, ‘PMAX works for us,’ or ‘It doesn’t.’ But if you’re in the camp of it not working, there are really very few things you can do to truly make it shine. And that’s the frustration, right? Then Google’s going to say, ‘Okay, this PMAX thing became kind of complicated. We have much better generative AI now, so let’s create a new campaign type called Super PMAX. It will do everything for you, you don’t have to touch it.’ And then they’ll be like, ‘Ooh, can we take away PMAX now that we have Super PMAX?’ And the cycle starts all over again.

Greg Finn: Yeah, no, I mean, I think it’s a good point.

And I do think PMAX had two fundamental issues. One, I don’t think it was ready to be rolled out when it was. When PMAX launched, we didn’t see the results we might have expected. Shopping is a bit different, but PMAX today, if you have a substantial amount of conversions, everybody should be able to get it to work or at least do well, even if you have to limit things to max conversion value or max conversions. But when it first launched, it wasn’t phenomenal, and they sort of built it as they went, which was an interesting approach, I’d say.

But yeah, I think they realized that people are more comfortable with a little bit of control while AI runs the machine. And then, to your point about campaigns, that’s where it’s our job to expand. Maybe it’s not just about going after leads or focusing on top-line ROAS, but we need to really focus on business objectives and take a more strategic approach, shifting away from just tactics.

Frederick Vallaeys: So let’s dive into Gen AI a bit more. Christine, do you have a take on the AI overviews from Google and how the consumer experience is changing? How is that impacting what advertisers do?

Christine Zirnheld: Circling back to what Greg just said about PMAX, actually, my biggest problem with AI overviews is that I feel like they rolled them out before they were fully ready. So now there’s a big trust issue on the consumer side. They were showing them a lot less for a while, so I feel like they weren’t fully rolling out, and there were so many bad examples of them in the SERPs. Now they’re kind of battling to make them look good again and get people to trust them.

From an advertiser’s perspective, I feel like we still don’t fully know how they’re going to look, especially for search. We’ve seen a couple of screenshots with images in them, but we still don’t know how that experience is going to play out. So we’re still trying to work through that and see how it’s going to look at the end of the day.

Greg Finn:

No, I mean, I think with AI overviews, it was a strange rollout. One week, they announce 100 new countries and a billion more people getting AI overviews. That’s phenomenal. But I’ve still had trouble with how they’ve shown up as they’ve been inconsistent. They showed up a lot, then went away, then showed up a lot again, and now they’re here and there.

They’re also showing up for terms that have traditionally been sacred ground for Google, like money or life terms, and often showing some bad or misleading examples. I question that rollout. And every example they give us is about how to get a stain out of clothes. I’ve seen that example four times from Google. It’s like, ‘Look at this ad.’ I saw it at GML, I know what this is. It’s about how to get a stain out of clothes. You tell me to use vinegar or something else and give me product suggestions.

I’m really interested to see how it plays out. Will it be horizontal cards? Vertical cards? I’m sure image assets will play a huge role in this. And then on the Microsoft side, too, because there are more platforms. We got a conversion from Copilot, figured out how to get Copilot data out of shopping, and it can work.

Christine Zirnheld: Yeah, circling back to that stain example, I just feel like everything is eCommerce-based. All of the examples are focused on that. AI overviews could be really great for lead gen, though there are some long-tail, top-of-funnel keywords that could work really well for lead gen accounts. But I just don’t see the wheels turning in that direction where Google’s planning to do a really good job with those tougher inquiries. It’s all been about how to get a stain out of clothes.

I’m excited about the potential, but I just feel like we’re so far from seeing what’s actually going to happen. It’s been so long since it was announced, and we still don’t really have ads in it yet.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, but then it’s not just Google, right?

It’s also Search GPT. So if Google is going to refuse to answer that lead gen conversation that you want to have with a chat assistant, you’ll go to Search GPT or just even Chat GPT. So one interesting thing that I’ve been hearing, I want to get your take on this, but Google is no longer a search engine.

Google is a transaction engine. And I’m kind of finding that to be the case. It’s just, I have a really hard time finding long tail things whether they be products I want to put in my home, whether it’s a piece of software that I’ve kind of heard about, like 10 most common, most popular things. And that more nuanced thing.

It’s hard to find because I don’t know how to talk about it in Google keyword terms to trigger it to actually give me back the thing that I’m searching for that I’m on a quest to find. Whereas I go to chat GPT and I can just have like verbal diarrhea all over the conversation. And it’s like, Oh wow.

Well, somewhere within that, I understood what you actually meant. And here’s the thing. Here’s what the, Duohiki is called. And now I can go to Google and I can actually type that in and maybe I finally find what I was looking for. But it is such a meaningfully better experience for me as a user to have a conversation with an assistant.

But where it then all ends is I can’t buy the thing through ChatGPT. I find what it is I want, but I have to go to Google to find where I can buy it, what the best price is or where I can fill in the lead gen form to get in contact with that company.

So what have you both heard on sort of like the evolving place of Google in the search consumer journey?

Greg Finn: I think I got it. Shep, what is your go to search engine right now?

Christine Zirnheld: Perplexity.ai

Greg Finn: Why do you like Perplexity?

Christine Zirnheld: I just think it does a really, really good job. First of all, understanding the intent. I always feel like it does a better job than GPT lately. And I love the annotations. So you can click and see exactly where it came from.

And then it would bring you to the website. So that’s been really nice too. But, again, I just think it does a better job, like, stream of consciousness, asking my question and giving me what I want back. But mainly the annotations is, I think, what Greg was going for.

Greg Finn: Yeah, and I’m with Fred. Outside of work, my number one source, I don’t have access to search GPT yet but I use chat GPT a ton.

My biggest concern there is that sometimes you want to fact-check or view more, and some of the citations can be tough to track down. I do love Perplexity.ai because the citations are great. I think AI overviews will help with a lot of that, though. To Fred’s point, right? Now that they have more links out there, citations, and the ability to explore further, I think that will really improve the experience, especially when things become more regular.

I’m seeing more AI overviews when I perform searches, but I still think there are some fundamental gaps where Google shies away from certain things people are really looking for, like comparisons or product reviews. That’s not really part of the AI overviews yet, so it’ll be interesting to see how that plays out.

But yeah, I think Google is really transactional, and a lot of the changes they’re making make sense in that format. The changes they’re making to Google Shopping right now are monumental. I’ve always seen shopping as an afterthought, even though they had Froogle back in the day and then took it away, followed by the creation of Google Shopping.

Most people experience Google Shopping through product listing ads (PLAs) or shopping ads, but now they’re trying to build out deals and customize feeds based on what you’re looking for. They’ve got a really unique position in the shopping space to say, ‘Hey, here’s the entire internet, everything you could want, just go look and figure out what you want.’ I think they’re leaning into that, but hopefully AI overviews can help balance that out for them.

Frederick Vallaeys: And I think those AI Overviews, they feel a bit sanitized on Google and they don’t really invite you to Go deeper on that conversation.

For me, that’s the key difference with the GPT experience. I’ve stopped typing. Now, I just put GPT in voice assistant mode and have a conversation. I don’t feel bound to looking at my screen or typing at my desktop. In those moments, whether I’m standing in line at the grocery store or sitting in the car, I can really dive deep into things I’ve always wanted to know more about. That helps inform my decisions about what I want to buy later on.

This also means that the traditional keyword, as we’ve known it, just isn’t as meaningful anymore. Christine, like you pointed out with Perplexity, it just gets you, right?

And part of the reason it gets you is because it has a memory of everything you’ve done. And sort of these large language models, they can even integrate through the metaglasses. They can integrate to the voice recognition pins. And so now you could say something as simple as like, Couch and it knows all of the couches you’ve been looking at, or whether you have a stain on your couch or whether you want to buy a new couch.

It just has this context, and this seemingly generic keyword could actually prompt the perfect ad for you. It could be that, or it could be the complete opposite, where you speak a hundred words about something, and it gets it. In Google, you can’t have a keyword that long, and that long-tail aspect doesn’t work as well anymore.

But Perplexity and GPT, they get it. They understand the context.

Christine Zirnheld: Yeah. And I think maybe to Google’s credit, I think we’re talking about how we use these things differently, right?

I have some queries where I want to go to Google to ask for it, and then the AI overview is kind of in my face when I didn’t necessarily want it. And then I’m going to Perplexity.ai when I want one of more of those conversational queries. So I, I kind of think that’s part of the problem with Google too, is I just wish they were keeping it more separate.

But I feel like they’re kind of forcing it on us right now for the rollout, and it’s just making it all like.

Frederick Vallaeys: Besides what the generative results look like, talk to me a little bit about in an agency setting or in your day to day lives. What are some of your favorite Gen AI ways of using Gen AI?

Greg Finn: I think some of the things that have really helped us, specifically, are asset creation. It really speeds things up. But it also takes some fine-tuning to get it to look good. Fred, I’ve seen all your presentations, and I guarantee you’re not just putting in one halfhearted prompt to get what you’re getting out of it.

For example, since the AI boom, we hired a designer because a lot of things were starting to look the same. We just wanted to do better. And that doesn’t mean this designer doesn’t use AI—it’s just that they’ll come up with and place different elements in the way they want them.

Where should these things go? Then you can use something like Adobe Firefly to create actual images and have them placed where they should be. It definitely helps save time.

For me, a lot of what I use AI for is just ChatGPT specifically. I know Amy Hebden has a fantastic article over on Search Engine Land, it’s about the 17 ways PPC advertisers can use prompts. I use it for basic competitor research: What’s their value proposition? What do they do well? What are people saying about them? What aren’t they saying? And where’s the overlap? It’s a great way to do some of that intern-like work. I think it’s the best use of time right now.

Christine Zirnheld: I feel like Greg did a lot of great examples for how we use it now at our agency. Another thing I would add is just with like tedious things, like emails, client correspondence.

I really like to use it to get me started on those things and then I’ll kind of fine tune it with my own brain. And then my mind was really blown by your talk at the most recent SMX about using it to build PPC scripts, Fred. I think that could be really a game changer because I do not have that coding experience and I feel like it could.

Really help even like lowly marketers like me be able to do stuff like that so I’m excited about like possibilities like that in the future as well

Frederick Vallaeys: Well, and it’s interesting right that you say that because like I happen to know how to write code But I’m a lot less hands on an account, so I don’t necessarily know what it is I should be doing, but I know how to do it.

And then you’re saying, on the other side of the fence, maybe you don’t have the script ability, but you know exactly how you would manage an account. And so what was so brilliant to me is this multi modality. Of GPT, you can, you can literally have a team meeting, go up to a whiteboard and sketch out like this is the flow that we go through when we manage, say, a search term or an ad creative or whatever it is and you draw these little flow charts and then you take a picture and you’re like, Hey, GPT, can you turn this into a script?

And boom, it spits one out. And so and the other thing I talked about the session that you saw was the, the selection of the GPT model, and I’m a very big GPT fan, so I talk mostly about OpenAI. And I’m, I’m, I’m, just to give some context on that, it’s not that I think the others are bad, I think it’s just like they’re all.

Playing the same game. So whatever is in Claude this week, it’ll be in GPT next week and vice versa, right? So rather than me trying to split my brain and try to keep up with everything I sort of put my eggs in the GPT basket But in GPT the latest model that came out is 01 and it’s really good at reasoning.

So the older models, like 4. 0, you basically had to say, like, step by step, this is how I would optimize my account. And so that flowchart, which you give a picture of, that would have been really helpful to the system. But now, now in 0. 1, you can almost say, this is the end state of the goal that I want to come out with.

Then it’ll figure out what are the steps to take to achieve that. And it’ll actually explain those steps. So you’re not left guessing, did it understand what I want and did it have the right strategy to execute on that? But it actually says like, listen, here’s the 35 steps that I would go through to achieve your outcome.

And then you can say, okay, well, that step looks right, but that one looks a bit off. And you start having the conversation back and forth until it really gets what you want to do. And then it builds the code for you. So that whole one model. That one has been really fascinating and I also really love the GPT 4 with Canvas where it generates the code, but you can start editing the code right there on the screen and then you can tweak it and you can say, oh, GPT, by the way, there was an error that came back from Google.

This was the error. And it leaves your changes of the code alone and it just fixes the things that need to be fixed. But if you’ve already like put in an email address or you’ve put in some like numbers that matter to your account, it leaves that stuff alone. So you’re not constantly like rewriting the same portions of the code.

So I’m super excited about all the things and how GPT can make scripting faster.

Greg Finn: Yeah. And I bet there’s people listening right now that are like, this sounds scary. Fred, I don’t know if you caught it, but I had seen that. In the earnings call, Google has said that 25 percent of the code now that that is being put out by Google is.

AI created code, which is wild to me that, that it’s that high for something like Google,

Frederick Vallaeys: right? And for people who are not coders, it’s like we, we all write, we all speak English and we all know the process of writing. Like Shay were saying, right? I mean, you, you know what you wanna put in the email, but the work of putting it on the page and then going and fixing the, the spelling mistakes because you, like, I can’t type very well, right?

So now I always have to go back. Like, that’s the tedious stuff that just takes time that you shouldn’t be spending. Like it’s the thought that’s in your head, like, let’s just get that on the paper. And it’s the same in programming and then, and, and, and programming fundamentally for ad scripts. It’s not even a programming that’s interesting.

It’s knowing what you should do in the account. What is the strategy that’s going to make that account perform better? And that’s the thing that you as the listener, as the PPC specialist, that’s what you know. And now you have a facility for this, this thing that speaks the foreign language of code, but it can take your input.

What’s in your brain and turn it into that foreign language that you can then copy paste into Google. You can just run it. And. Most of the time it doesn’t work out of the box, but luckily that system is smart enough that you just say like, listen, here’s the error that I got back from Google and it’ll go and fix it.

Christine Zirnheld: Yeah, I thought that was one of the most eye opening parts of your talk, actually, Greg. He just went back and forth with, okay, it didn’t work the first time. This is what I asked them to do to fix it. And like, eventually it worked out. So again, it seems really intimidating, but if you just get started and then you just keep asking those little questions until it works.

It seemed like even I could do it, so I’m excited to give it a try.

Frederick Vallaeys: Well, we’ll have to do a follow up episode and see how Scrap has become the greatest scripts programmer, hopefully.

Christine Zirnheld: Yeah.

Frederick Vallaeys: But yeah, let’s talk a little bit about kind of the new theme of this show, right? But how do you safeguard your career in PPC, digital marketing, or maybe not even that, but what do you do when all this AI is coming in and doing some of this stuff that we’ve done historically, like you know, writing ads, assets, figuring out the right search terms, automated bidding from Google, that’s basically machine learning.

So, as more of that is being done by the machines, like what is it that we should Focus on to ensure that we make a living.

Greg Finn: I think there’s a lot of doom and gloom around AI, with people fearing that it could take jobs. Sure, it might eliminate some low-level tasks, but that’s going to happen across every industry. Instead of focusing on the potential downsides, we should be looking at the time-saving opportunities AI offers.

Think about it that rather than just running campaigns, AI can give us more time to dive deeper into data analysis, break it down, and maybe shift toward more advanced strategies, like value-based bidding. And as Shep mentioned earlier, it opens up doors to explore new avenues beyond just Google, like trying Reddit ads or other platforms.

So, instead of seeing AI as a job threat, see it as a tool that frees up time. Use that time to improve in areas you didn’t have the bandwidth to focus on before. Do better for your company, for your clients, and yourself. AI is about enabling growth, not just cutting tasks. There’s so much potential if we shift our perspective.

Christine Zirnheld: Yeah, I think one of the biggest things, like Greg mentioned, is using AI to get better. You can free up time to diversify your skill set rather than spending that time training others or handling lower-level tasks yourself. It’s about growing your capabilities in other areas and platforms, and that’s where the real potential lies.

But, it’s also important to focus on what AI can’t do. Think about the unique value you can provide your clients—things that automation just can’t replicate. Learning more about your clients, understanding their needs, and offering that personalized service can set you apart.

Whether it’s meeting people in the industry or finding ways to travel more, AI can help create time for those experiences. We were just at a talk together, Fred, and even in those moments, automation plays a role in giving us more opportunities to grow personally and professionally. So it’s not just about automating tasks, it’s about using that saved time to invest in your growth and expand your horizons, and that’s what makes it really exciting.

Greg Finn: Yeah, even on Marketing O’Clock, we use that approach, right? At the end of the show, we do a funny segment. The whole show is supposed to be entertaining edutainment, but we throw in trivia and stuff like that. And we know the actual value isn’t in the trivia questions. It’s in the back-and-forth, the conversation, having fun, laughing, and spreading enjoyment. So, we automate that trivia part, but the real value is in the secret sauce that we bring to the conversation.

You need to figure out what your secret sauce is, whether it’s for your company, your clients, or yourself. And then, put more focus into that. I think most people feel like they have this bucket list of things they want to do, but they just don’t have enough time to get through it. That list just sits there, growing.

It’s time to pull stuff off that bucket list. Start expanding your horizons. Use ChatGPT to help with keyword research. Use image tools to create assets. It doesn’t have to be as much work anymore. Look at it as a positive and take advantage of it to make your work more efficient and valuable.

Frederick Vallaeys: And it is a double edged sword because Greg. I, all of a sudden, want to do so many things that I didn’t think I could ever do in the past, but now with Gen AI, it’s like, ooh, I actually could.

And my list has gotten so long, like, my mind is spinning. It’s crazy. At some level, I think I’m more stressed than I’ve ever been, just because the opportunity seems so Tremendous but, but to what you both were saying, right, don’t fear it, but fear others who use it better make it part of your repertoire and make it enable you to do better things, more things.

But yeah, at some level, I also have to figure out, like, where am I going to have the focus to not do everything that I could now do, but what are the most useful things? But luckily we can go to GPT and be like, Hey, here’s the 10 things I’ve been thinking about doing. Which ones do you think I should work on?

And it being a friendly advisor, it’s going to get you back on the right course.

Greg Finn: Yeah, and it’s even just those little improvements too. I know you’ve got grandiose ideas, and some people might think, ‘I’m not the same as Fred,’ but you’re probably doing reporting right now, and the way you’ve been reporting for the past three years should be different today, right?

You should be able to take that data and extract more insights from it. People don’t want data—they want insights. And you should be looking at it this way: How can I improve everything? How can I be more valuable? How can I separate myself from others out there?

You have the opportunity to really invest time and say, ‘Yeah, I want to do better at all these things.’ Go pull that data, give me these scripts, and automate different tasks so I don’t have to keep doing this routine work.

Frederick Vallaeys: So Shep, if people want to, watch Marketing O’Clock, get in touch with Cypress North what else should they do? Where can they find all of these things?

Christine Zirnheld: So, at Marketing O’Clock, we release new episodes every Friday on YouTube or your favorite podcast player. If you’re on the East Coast, it’s more like Thursday night. But again, covering all the digital marketing news of the week.

Cypress North, you can hit us up if you want to work with us at cypressnorth.com. I am Shep Zirnheld on X.

Greg Finn: I actually saved so much time with AI that I’ve got another show now too. It’s a daily show Monday through Thursday with Barry Schwartz, Morty Oberstein and Crystal Carter. It’s over on the Rusty Brick YouTube channel.

I just was like, Hey, look, what am I doing with all this time? I’m going to be bettering myself, talking with Barry every single day, get in front of more people. And so that’s called it’s new. And of course, marketing.

Frederick Vallaeys: Nice. Well, hey, thanks for sharing all those amazing perspectives on the industry that we work in.

So I really hope people will subscribe to your show and check it out. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please give it a like and also subscribe to find out when the next one is coming. Greg, Shep, thank you very much for being on and everyone. Thanks for watching. We’ll see you for the next episode. Thank you.

Christine Zirnheld: Bye.