PPC automation: How the world’s best PPC agencies adapt and thrive

Episode Description

Kasim Aslam and Patrick Gilbert reveal how they’re making the transition to automation in terms of strategy, people, tech stack, etc., and how they’re measuring and seeing success in the process in their agencies.

P.S. Kasim also spills the beans on the #PerformanceMax strategy he applies at his agency.

Tune into this episode to learn:

- What should your agency do and not do in this automation era?

- Why and how to do better attribution and measurement?

- What skills should you look for when hiring?

and more.

Episode Takeaways

What should your agency do and not do in this automation era?

• Embrace automation and use it to enhance strategic decision-making rather than resisting it, as automation is an inevitable progression in advertising.
• Avoid setting rigid targets like TROAS initially, as it can limit the learning and performance potential of automated systems like PMAX.

Why and how to do better attribution and measurement?

• Attribution is crucial; using sophisticated tools like Northbeam, which provide more accurate tracking by not relying solely on UTM parameters, can significantly improve understanding of advertising impact.
• Measurement and interpretation of data are key to providing value to clients, especially in understanding how different advertising efforts contribute to final conversions.

What skills should you look for when hiring?

• Seek individuals who can understand and analyze data, as the role of a marketer increasingly involves interpreting complex attribution models and making data-driven decisions.
• Value experience in entrepreneurship or diverse fields that encourage creative problem-solving and a deep understanding of business metrics beyond just marketing.

Additional Insights

• Training in measurement and understanding the full capabilities and limitations of platforms like Google Ads and PMAX is essential.
• Agencies should focus on educating clients about the long-term benefits and realities of automated marketing strategies, setting realistic expectations for results and timelines.

Episode Transcript

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Hello, and welcome to another episode of PPC town hall. My name is Fred Vallaeys. I’m your host today. I’m also the co founder and CEO at Optmyzr. So we’re going to continue the conversation we’ve been having, which is about automation and how it’s changing PPC. And today we have two amazing experts to help us.

Figure out how they’re making a transition, how they’re transitioning people in their agencies when there’s more automation, how they’re transitioning processes to deal with all this automation. And we’re also going to learn which automations they like and which ones they don’t. So I’m sure somebody at some point is going to talk about PMAX.

And hopefully spill the beans and tell us how they’re making the most of that. I know that’s a hot topic these days. But our guests today are going to be Kasim Aslam and Patrick Gilbert. We’ll have them introduce themselves in just a minute, but this is going to be an amazing episode. So thanks for joining us.

Let’s get rolling with PPC Town Hall.

All right, and here are my guests for today. We got Patrick and we got Kasim. So Kasim, why don’t you start and tell us a little bit about yourself.

KASIM ASLAM: I’m the founder and CEO of Solutions8. I like to be a little petulant and say we’re the number one ranked Google ads agency on the planet, but we actually lost our ranking when Google made their recent core update.

So I think we’re like number seven now. And we’re Google specific and we’ve got a fun little YouTube channel where we’ll run around and teach everybody all the things that we’re learning and mostly the mistakes that we’re making, which are significant. And I think this is maybe the most exciting point in my career period.

With the changes that Google made the last two years retroactively have been a nightmare because we didn’t, we couldn’t see where Google was going, but now that they’ve sort of, you know, Lifted the curtain and gave us the aha moment and presentation. It’s been, it’s been pretty cool. It all feels like it’s coming together.

So I’m excited for this conversation.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Nice. And I’m sorry to hear about losing the ranking, but you do amazing work. So I’m really happy to have you here. Watch those videos as well. Some of them are a bit more controversial, but you know, it’s it’s good content and custom custom is always sharing good advice.

Patrick, you run an agency as well, right? So tell us about what you do at Adventure media.

PATRICK GILBERT: So my official unofficial title is chief operating officer, but my background is in client services and strategy. So I spend a great deal of my time working directly with our clients and. The rest of our team here to make sure that we’re aligning on overall strategy, sharing the best ideas throughout our organization and doing the best work possible for clients.

I’m also the author of Join or Die Digital Advertising and Digital Automation. Got to plug the book. Check it out on Amazon or Amazon. com. Anywhere you get books, which is probably just Amazon. And yeah, just Adventure media. So we’ve been around for eight years, started out as a traditional Google ads agency branched out into Facebook while ago and have continued to grow our service offering.

Today. I kind of described what’s most as being somewhere between a traditional PVC agency and a consulting firm. At this point, I think we, we embraced the concept of automation. And I think. Earlier than most, and we’ve helped shepherd a lot of clients along in this journey, which led to a lot of the content that we’ve put out over the years, including the book.

And I’ve decided to be a part of this conversation and see how we might be able to give some advice to some other fans of PPC Town Hall.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Yeah. Thank you for coming on to the show today, Patrick. Definitely recommend the book, join or die. So check it out. We’ll put the link here in the show notes and the chat as well.

And then Patrick, you also work with Isaac Rudensky, right? And he’s probably like the number one teacher of Google ads on the Udemy. So if you haven’t seen that course, definitely check it out.

PATRICK GILBERT: He is, and I’m taking everything, all of my self control to not turn the camera over because I can see into his office where he’s eating lunch right now, and Oh my god, do it, do it, turn it.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Let’s see, go full screen on that.

There’s Isaac.

PATRICK GILBERT: We spend a lot of our time just kind of making weird faces at one another, so happy to get a very embarrassing shot of him eating what appears to be, Avocado toast.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: So there’s like Northcote darts flying at your head later. We know where it’s coming from.

PATRICK GILBERT: Probably not great.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Well, good. So, I mean, you both kind of alluded to it, right?

But in this age of automation, you guys have been on the the cutting edge and happy. You say that the veil has been lifted from Google’s perspective, but that’s really my first question. So this rise of automation. I think I talked to a lot of agencies and they’re just worried, like, are we going to be having anything to do?

So mostly I hear it in the context of it’s like a bad thing, it’s threatening our livelihoods, but it sounds like you guys are a bit more upbeat, so good thing or bad thing automation.

KASIM ASLAM: It’s a difficult question. I’m not trying to be a fence sitter. I know we have limited time, but you know, it’s, it’s like, was the automobile good or bad? And it’s like, well, if you sold horse and buggies, you know, it was a horrible thing. Or it’s bad for the environment. So I just think it’s, it’s an absolute inevitability.

And I think that the conversation needs to be. It needs to be fast forwarded from an industry perspective. I’m not saying our conversation here, because if agencies are fighting it, they’re already antiquated. There’s no question that this is the direction that we’re going to head because it’s, it’s the direction of scale and where all the advertising networks are going to send us.

That said, what I would tell agencies is. You’ll always have a place and generally speaking, I actually think your place is going to become far more important. What we’ve noticed just in the last 18 to 24 months is the ability to interpret data and assist clients in identifying what what’s real from an attribution perspective has, and there’s no way for me to put a multiplier on this.

So I’ll just be hyperbolic and say has doubled the value that we bring to To the vast majority of our, of our larger clients, small clients we’ve lost, and I’ve lost when we, you know, pre P max is I’m just going to let the cat out of the bag here. Our minimum was three grand a month. We would take on a client that was spending 3, 000 a month.

Post PMAX, November 2021, we lifted it from 3 to 10, and then since then, clients that are spending sub 10 for us are either on our incubator program or we just don’t take them, and we’re going to see a lot of that, we’re going to see a lot of, it’s not that people spending less than 10 grand a month can’t run ads, it’s that they can’t run ads and pay an agency, and the agency is, you’re just sitting there and twiddling your thumbs because there’s not enough data for you to really make actionable Changes.

The computer’s doing the whole damn thing for you. So you’ll probably have to level up a little bit. I think we’re gonna see a lot of burning off of dead wood. But for real agencies, for good agencies, that’s a good thing. Because right now if I throw a rock in any crowded room, I’m gonna hit four people that run paid ads.

And it’s every idiot kid that’s taking a weekend course. And they don’t, they muddy the waters for us. They tell the inadequate stories and they don’t manage expectations. And those will be the companies going away. People that, that can really do the job and do it well. You’re going to be more thoroughly embedded than ever.

That’s my soft opinion.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: I agree with that. I mean, so it’s like This is so many times you hear, Hey, we talked to the neighbor kid. He’s in high school where she’s in high school. We asked them to help us with PPC because it’s like computer stuff. Kids seem to know computer stuff, right? But clearly there is a lot of value that we can add.

But it is curious because at one point when like smart shopping came out, I was of the opinion that that was actually a boon for agencies because now you could actually work with these smaller clients. But basically put them on the right form of autopilot, put some controls in place and kind of help them with these onboarding stages.

But definitely what you’re saying makes a lot of sense too. If you’re not spending a lot of money on PPC, then there’s nothing in it for the agency. And also, I think the more data you have and the more that you can look across different companies in similar verticals, you can probably bring a lot of value to your clients.

But Patrick, I’d love to hear from you on that.

PATRICK GILBERT: Yeah, I couldn’t agree with you more. And I really appreciate you setting the stage in the way that you just did, because that is the reality of it. I’m not going to beat around the bush. I, I’ve been saying this for a while. Automation is an incredible thing.

And I, I’ve really leaned into the concept that automation will change your job, but it won’t replace you. And I think that what we’ve seen over the last three years now, maybe even a little bit more, is that the opportunity for us to provide value to our clients has been more than ever. It’s just very different.

And I think to your point, like, I think like the history of digital advertising has really just been capitalizing on different versions of arbitrage Gary Vaynerchuk talks about slide talks about the concept of like attention arbitrage, which is the first thing of like when the biggest brands in the world were all advertising on TV, but most attention has shifted to, let’s say online.

And then eventually the mobile it was just a, it was cost effective. For anyone to go in, and it was cheaper than it should have been. And that’s the concept of arbitrage. It’s cheaper than it should be. And I think the early days of Google ads was that, where you could sell a product very easily by capitalizing on Google search.

You just find the right keywords. And then a lot of people came to Google. So the next version of arbitrage became finding the long tail keywords. And then that became kind of oversaturated. So it became the quality score question. So it was really just people finding that like niche of like, Hey, this costs less than it should.

And the smart, the best agencies, the ones that were growing the most, or the ones that were doing the best work for their brands, were the ones that were just capitalizing on these arbitrage pieces. Facebook was a huge thing where, All of a sudden, any person that was smart enough to upload an audience list and make a lookalike audience in the Facebook, we’re just being able to churn out money and grow a brand’s revenue at magnificent scale.

That has all caught up to us. Now we’re now in a position where there was this great book that came out by someone I know called I’m leveling the playing field. By the way, that’s Fred’s book. If you guys haven’t read it yet, it’s phenomenal, but that’s the concept of like all these platforms keep coming out with a new version of leveling the playing field.

And you have to figure out what that new arbitrage opportunity is. My point now, though, my thought on this is that all that’s done, all the arbitrage is gone, and now we’re back to the basics of doing real marketing advertising. And I’ve never had more fun doing the work than I have over the last two to three years, because what this shift to automation has really done is beforehand there was a lot of mediocre advertisers, so let’s call them mediocre agencies.

That got away with mediocre strategy that were effective at selling mediocre products. And today, if you don’t, if you do one of those three things and, and all of those things aren’t great, you’re not going to succeed. So it is kind of thinning the herd a little bit. And it’s really unfortunate to like, see this happen to a lot of colleagues, but to your point, we’re now able to solve real marketing problems and do like this stuff.

The real reason we got into this industry in the first place to do real good advertising, And that opportunity is now a direct response to what’s happened with automation. So I’m all for it. I love it. And I’m here for

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: it. I feel like there’s so much to unpack there. And thank you for mentioning my book.

Can I just say

KASIM ASLAM: something? Patrick just said, I just wrote this down because this might be the smartest thing I’ve heard in the last 14 days. This is brilliant. Patrick said the history of digital advertising has just been different versions of capitalizing on arbitrage. What a paradigm shift that one is like, and it was a really kind way of saying, Most of y’all haven’t been doing much you know, much of anything for the last two to three years outside of just borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.

And that’s worth mentioning. If all you’re doing is positioning yourself right in the middle of this, you know, this arbitrage game, we just commoditize the arbitrage. And so you have to move on, provide real value. I think that was, that was brilliantly stated.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Thank

KASIM ASLAM: you.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: It was. It’s beautiful. I’m sure this will be on social media.

A lot of people are going to like that one. But but it also kind of goes into this point and, in the past, when you talk to clients, it was easy to show value, right? Because things were growing. You just go from 1 arbitrage to another. You’d always be showing lots and lots of value. Nowadays, maybe we’re more in the place.

You guys are saying. Where CPC costs are going up the options are very competitive, so. It’s going to get more. More expensive for you and maybe your value is that you didn’t get it as expensive as much more expensive for your clients as if they hadn’t had you to help them. Right. But that’s still a more difficult story to tell them.

Hey, we’ve got more conversions. They become cheaper now. It’s like, Hey, well, we got still the same number of conversions and they’re only a little bit more expensive, but here’s what would have happened if I wasn’t helping you. It would have like doubled in cost. Is that something you guys look at and how do you explain that to because I mean, from a client’s perspective, it’s like, Oh my God, this agency is not doing a good job.

Let me go and try somebody else. Right. And then it becomes this musical chairs game almost, where they just go to a new agency every year.

PATRICK GILBERT: I, I think what Kostin was saying before is, is true. And I think every major shift that happens, whether it’s the first shift in the automation, or if it’s what happened with Facebook and iOS 14, or now Performance Max, it’s There’s almost like this rotation where you do have some clients that churn because they’re not able to handle the change.

And then after a certain amount of time, like we, we lost a good amount of Facebook business after iOS 14, but we’ve since gained a ton gone, gone through like a different cycle and have like figured out what they need to do differently. And now we’ve been able to pick up, like, and figure out how to drive success in this new paradigm shifted world.

And we’re able to provide value for that new set of clients that have come on board. So I kind of expect the same thing to happen for PMAC.

KASIM ASLAM: I think the agency’s new job is attribution. I think attribution is the next trillion dollar problem. I really mean that. I think, you know, Google’s operating off of a 500 touch point paradigm.

The click to buy mantra is, is so non existent. It’s, it’s. It’s frustratingly asinine. Think about your own buying experience with anything. You know, I mean, from an airline ticket to a pencil to a house, nobody sees an ad, buys a thing. Nobody. And there’s this old 1970s Harvard Business School study that says it takes seven touches before somebody’s ready to convert.

You know, it’s a 50 year old data. We’re still using it. It takes hundreds of touches, impressions, views, engagements, most of which people aren’t even, aren’t even cognizant of. So an agency that’s just looking myopically at like, Oh, well, Google says, look at what Google says. Google lies. That’s my quote of the day in the year in my lifetime.

Google lies. Google is lying is built into the system. I’m so, so sorry, Fred. I know, I know you’re part of the mothership. I got to remember that when I’m on this show. But for a reason, it’s not just Google Facebook. You know, if you, if you sell 10 products, Google’s gonna say, I sold eight of those and Facebook’s gonna say, I sold eight of those.

You still only sold ten products. So now what’s the mix? Where’s the efficiency? Where’s the margin? They’re gonna steal from each other, build high walls, not let each other see across them. And then there’s the agency that can say, well, I think, here’s the lift. Here’s the change. Here’s the impact. Here’s the impression.

Businesses can’t do that themselves. We just became so much more relevant. The more opaque The data gets and the more complex it gets, the more you need somebody who can actually interpret it. So then that’s a good agency. It takes a good agency. So if you suck at, you know, data, if you haven’t gone through Chris Mercer’s measurement marketing, if you don’t know what attribution is, if you’re not playing with the real attribution tool, you’re in a lot of trouble.

But if you can go wrap your hands around that, you have more job security than any, any agency I can, I can think of. There’s not another agency on the planet that, or another skill set on the planet that’s going to provide that. So much value. It’s the little hinge that swings the big door.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: That makes total sense, right?

I mean, at the end of the day, anyone who keeps a job, it’s because you prove that you have certain value and attribution is all about proving that value and reallocating money. In the places that that have better results. So totally agree on that. Not quite sure I’m going to argue with you on the trillion dollar opportunity because

KASIM ASLAM: hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent because people don’t know where the conversion lift is coming from.

If you could actually say, Hey, this is your acquisition channel. This is where acquisition comes from. This is your engagement. This is your consideration. This is your, like, nobody knows right now. We’re all dealing with media marketing lift, you know, MER and, and, and just pointing at ROI and CAC. If somebody was really able to zoom in and tell you at what stage the impact happens and for what avatar it’s

PATRICK GILBERT: over.

So I can, I agree. And it’s a really hard problem. And I just want to plug it. We actually just published a blog post on our website, adventureppc. com, where we manually created an attribution model for a D2C econ client posted about how it was, it was total pain. It was a hundred hours of collective work.

We had people all over the globe helping us out with manual data entry. But this blog post walks through and shows the actual data of how we got to that point, including the concept of brand lift. There’s two different kinds of pieces here that I think we’re dancing around. And you have brand lift, which is like the impact of like, you know, you see Coca Cola ads everywhere and how do you measure that affinity that you have to that, but the other one that doesn’t get talked about enough in, in the digital advertising space is what I would refer to as a halo effect, meaning like not just the impact on brand or revenue, but what is the impact that one ad has on the next app?

So what we were able to measure specifically here is all these different touch points and say, okay, well for a non branded Google search query. Our average conversion rate was about 1%. 1 percent of those people who had historically clicked on that ad would convert. When we were able to measure the touch points of people who had first been shown a YouTube ad and then perform that exact same search or yeah, the exact same search they’re expected for their actual conversion rate jumped to 2.

4%. So from a math standpoint, now we can theoretically bid nearly two and a half times more on that search query and still profitably convert that customer at the same cap that we did before showing that YouTube ad. So now if we’re saying we can now afford to bid more aggressively, that means everything.

That’s how you win in digital advertising, because that means we can scale more budget and we can outbid our competitors. But most people have, have given up on the concept of video advertising and they’ve given up and they say programmatic ads don’t work and YouTube doesn’t work and discovery ads don’t work.

It’s because people are trying to make good for us. Exactly. Let me tell you, arbitrage YouTube costs less than it should. But that’s the thing. And you need to be able to measure that and prove that to clients. But we’re unable to go to them and say, Hey, look, like just have this cohort of people. And there’s all, there’s millions of kinds of ways that people have interacted with our brands, but specifically pulling out the cohort of people who.

Only saw one YouTube ad and only did one search on Google for this exact keyword. There were two and a half times more likely to convert, and therefore we can scale with that audience. And then you factor in, we’re running Pinterest for these people want to connect to television. So you have all these different incrementality tests that you’re doing across the board becomes much more complicated.

But I think understanding that principle of like the halo effect and the different, the impact that one ad might have on the expected conversion rate on the next ad interaction. I think is the biggest thing that agencies can now bring to their clients, help them prove that. And that’s the storyline that will help them get over the hump that, Hey, cost per click has increased year over year.

Yeah, but it’s okay. Cause we’re going to, we’re going to increase our conversion rate by doing these three things first. Do we need the halo effect? Sorry.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: So data driven attribution is basically that same concept. It’s what sequence of searches may someone have done and how has one contributed to lifting the next one?

That whole halo effect. And so I want to hear from you as well, but let’s kind of shift a little bit too into like, what does your tool stack look like? Because on the one side, if you have the perfect measurement system, you still need to be able to somehow put those bits into Google. Often in real time, based on like this persona has done these things, which we understand to be highly valuable and like halo effects and brand lift, et cetera.

But sometimes we get a little bit stuck because Google doesn’t let us set real time bits, right? So the word you bring in smart bidding, how do you piece that together? How does that fit into your. Tech stack Picasso, what, what are your thoughts?

KASIM ASLAM: Going back to attribution, I hate to keep beating this drum, by the way.

I didn’t realize I was gonna come to this meeting all of a sudden, like waving my attribution flag. It just happened. We use, we use North Beam. I’m, I’m an early stage investor and advisor, but that’s not why we use it. I was using it first, and then I threw out, I threw money at him. My advice to everybody is don’t use don’t use attribution software that’s UTM dependent because you’re going to lose 30 percent of your conversions.

It’s inadequate data. Now you can extrapolate from what you’ve captured, but the extrapolation isn’t. It’s not efficient because the 30 percent that you’re losing isn’t necessarily consistent with the 60 percent 60 some odd percent that you’re keeping. And well, people who

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: block cookies are a special breed, right?

Like that’s a group in and of itself. Yeah. Introducing a lot of bias.

KASIM ASLAM: Yeah, they’re different folks for sure. And they tend to be maybe a little more sophisticated, possibly a better buyer. So I feel like of all the people, North beam has done the best job at really getting closer to the source of truth.

So that’s maybe the most important tool we have. They’ve restricted it to e commerce only common SAS. But I, you know, with certain clients, we won’t take them unless they have at least an attribution software. We have to have a single source of truth and it has to live outside of Google because we’re a Google specific agency.

But we understand, you know, Google’s data driven attribution is flawed and it’s flawed because it only takes into consideration Google’s impact. Well, if you’re running other media channels, if you’re running Google and Facebook, Facebook has an unbelievable impact on Google and we have a client that’s running triple whale, sorry for throwing shade at triple whale.

Triple whale is showing. An eight X return from Google and we’re telling them we’re not getting eight. We’re maybe getting three or four. It’s your Facebook ads that are really yielding this result, but because we’re running brand remarketing, Google is able to steal it and triple whale can’t see through that veil.

So knowing the difference between those two things, I think ends up being really important. So as far as tech stack, the thing that we rely on the most is an attribution software. The other thing that I’d recommend doing is because we’ve gone full on PMAX week. Or hooked up to a drip with the Kool Aid, by the way, I don’t trust it, but, but we use it.

PMAX is so media thirsty that it burns through creative. So this whole, like, well, my brand guideline says that my logo, it’s like, shut up, you can’t do that. I can’t play that game with you. I can’t be on these. Do you know what I mean? Like, it’s like, we need to just load this thing up. It’s like fast fashion.

We need fast ads, you know, just in, in a few. And, and Harmon brothers are referral partners of mine. I love them dearly. And, and there’s a, there’s a place for that. Can’t use your Harmon brothers video. My PMAC said, cause if you give me five videos, I’m going to burn through four of them in six weeks and then I need more videos and you’re paying a hundred grand for every one of those Harmon brother videos.

So get out there with your smartphone, fortune 100 brand, and, and shoot me some stuff that I can actually load into this machine learning mechanism that is burning through your media faster than you can create it.

PATRICK GILBERT: Kazem, what is the, tell me on North beam real quick. I’ve never used them. So what did the onboarding look like for that?

How long does it take from what do you need? What, what does a brand have to do or realize? For them to be like, okay, I’m ready to invest in North mean it’s a, so it depends on the media is called a solution like North beam. Just sure that

KASIM ASLAM: not, not pushing North beam too, too hard. And by the way, North beam has its flaws.

There’s a bunch of things we’ve got a publicly Trinity come company running for it right now that has some inbound media that North beam had never built for. And so they had to customize it and we had some, you know kind of funky wonky data. The nice thing about North beam though, is it’s, it’s a ability to identify a prospect is multivariate.

It’s not fingerprinting. I didn’t say those words because that’s not allowed apparently, but it’s, they use a multivariant factors in order to triangulate who a user is. So their ability to watch somebody is massively increased. The onboarding from a customer perspective is actually pretty quick. They’re working on a server side attribution product.

I don’t think that it’s ready yet, but until then it’s, you know, the same type of pixel installation that you would have for most tracking utilities. The customization comes when you add you add channels that aren’t traditional. So if you’re running, you know, YouTube, whatever, then Northbeam can check all that.

But then we had a client that wanted to run Hulu and CTV and Northbeam at that point hadn’t built it out. So they had to build it out. But from an attribution standpoint, I can do a case study for y’all. I’m not an affiliate. It’s unbelievable like what it can do because we have a client really big.

I’m trying not to give them away because they’re specific. They’re, they’re, they’re a special type of clothing. And without North beam, it looked like YouTube was dying on the vine to the point that you just made Patrick, you know, YouTube traffic being cheap, but YouTube tracking is a It’s abysmal. You can’t see Lyft outside of YouTube.

So, the client wanted to turn off YouTube. We show them NorthBeam and we’re like, YouTube is all your acquisition traffic. It’s all of it. You turn off YouTube, and I don’t know what, four months from now, all of your conversions are going to drop, and you’re not going to know why. That’s the scary thing. How many times have we turned off a campaign thinking, oh, this isn’t working, only to find out like, oh no, that was the thing that was feeding the top of the funnel?

And because we don’t have a good cosmic view of time, marketers have a bad habit of looking at 30 day windows. Why do we do that? You know what I mean? If you turn this off six months ago and it’s a six month time lag, well, you turn off your acquisition strategy and you have no idea what you did or why you did it.

So North beam gives us a view of that. It’s really cool that way.

PATRICK GILBERT: Awesome. I’m going to check it out. I agree to that last point. It’s really hard to assess when you shut off advertising for something. It’s like shutting off the engines of a plane. You don’t just crash to the earth. You kind of glide to the top.

We worked with one of our clients was piloting a new product and completely new type of product, new type of idea. It’s not something that people necessarily in the market for. And it was a six month proof of concept, spent a lot of money advertising it and and that was shut off, I don’t know, two months ago at this point, but we’re still getting conversions.

It’s just like slowly falling back to earth. And it’s like, I don’t know why people are still signing up for the service. Cause we’re not talking about it anywhere. Like no Google branded search, nothing, but we’re still getting conversions because of the investment in media that we made earlier in the year.

So it is interesting to see that actually.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Yeah. Like you guys are saying, I mean, when you have so many touch points, like those touch points take a while to lead up to the thing you eventually want. And it totally makes sense too. I mean, if it, this is like a clothing product where it’s upper funnel product.

You have to tell people this is something you might want to move them down that funnel. So all these attribution things make sense, but let’s shift it for a second here to smart bidding, right? Because I think We’re all saying, well, the downside of Google is it’s very Google centric in how it measures and how it gives value.

And so it may think it’s giving an 800 percent return on investment or return on ad spend. But it’s not true because we use these better, more sophisticated systems within the agencies to understand it’s really only 300%. But how do you now connect that to something like smart bidding, like P max, because Google.

There’s the measurement problem, but there’s also the decision making process that they then use if they truly believe it’s an 800 percent ROAS. They’re going to be willing to bid more for those auctions than you believe they should. So are you leveraging the TROAS goal or are you changing up how you report conversions and value to them or how do you bring their system?

Because ultimately you’re probably not doing manual bidding, right? You can’t in PMAX. Exactly. In PMAX, you can’t, but even if you didn’t have PMAX, even if it was a regular search campaign, you’d probably be on some form of tROAS, tCPA, smart bidding. But kind of like, how do you, how do you bridge that gap now between your reality and Google’s reality and Google having to bid based on what they see as their reality?

PATRICK GILBERT: So one of the, one of the most important things that, I think I’ve learned about machine learning is the difference between confidence and accuracy. And this is all modeling across in any statistical modeling. A machine could be confident but not accurate, meaning it thinks that like this is what happens when Google, you know, Hey, we’re gonna, we have the right to spend more than twice your daily budget.

And then it’s like, okay, well, we didn’t get any more conversions. So you can be confident, but not accurate. Or you could be not confident, but accurate. Like you’re succeeding when you’re growing your business. When both of those things are together. So if you understand, like, to your point earlier, Kasim, about, like, hey, we know it’s gonna take multiple touchpoints.

It’s not just, like, linearly, I saw an ad for this coffee, and now I’m, oh, I bought this coffee. If, if you take a step back and understand the way that this process works, Brand advertising consumer journey should work. That’s when you start to pull the different levers within the machine learning. So you start to think, Hey, look, like I’m getting, you know, we’re, we’re spending below a budget that I think is appropriate.

Like I know that we could be spending three times this amount at a better return on ad spend. If you, if you have that gut feeling, then it’s likely that you’re, you’re missing out on accuracy and confidence and you have to force the machine to learn more. So in that situation, what we would do just to be very practical about it is like, all right, we’re going to switch everything.

We’re going to remove all ROAS goals. We’re going to move CPA goals, and we’re going to do maximize conversion value. And we’re going to really bleed money a little bit for, you know, two weeks or whatever to push the machine to learn as much as possible to go out there and increase its confidence and accuracy about the market that we know exists.

We just have to point Google in a direction that’s going to go find it. And then once you see things start to go to the direction that you think it will, then you can start to reintroduce those new T ROAS like thresholds. And, and now it’s learned a lot more. It’s using different signals. It’s using different variables to be able to prove, Accurate conversion rates at a higher scale.

So just understanding like, Hey, look, like, I don’t think that this is a product that should be sold with one click. And one day, one of my favorite things I look at with a new client is the time lag report. And it’s like, Hey, look, you’re getting 90 percent of your conversions within one day. We like you’re selling like car insurance.

People don’t just make a decision and this is just an example, right? But it’s like, it’s like people don’t decide on that in one day. Like it’s something that like people need to think about. They need to do multiple searches. They need to consult with their spouse, whatever. Like you should have a 13 to 20 day timeline.

And the fact that you don’t means that you’re only optimizing your campaigns for the lowest hanging fruit. That’s just sitting there waiting for it. You’re not really doing marketing. So once you kind of understand that and talk to clients about like, this should take a long time. So we need to be able to go out there and find those people and then kind of convert them throughout the process.

That’s, and it’s going to suck in the short term. So we’re not really gonna prove the business until we get to that point, but that’s the way we tackle that problem.

KASIM ASLAM: I had a, it was kind of a friend come to me after an event. And he goes, look, man, I’m ready to go with you with Google ads. He does high end B2B managed SLAs.

And he said but I got to see proof of concept 60, 90 days max. And I’m like, how long is your sales cycle? And he said, he goes 18 months. And so I was like, how in your mind, how does that work? You know, what can I do in 90 days that will show you what we’ll have, I don’t have a time machine, but that’s how we all think.

I have to, I have to know if this is going to work now, regardless of, you know, the, the, I think what you just brought up is really brilliant, Patrick. It’s just like zoom out of the digital world. It’s not like people online are different. They’re still going to take however long they take to buy car insurance.

So if the mechanism is telling you one day, then, then we need to, we need to modify our paradigm there.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: To hear from you, because I’m too about like, well, what’s your process working with clients? Right. And I think Patrick just gave brilliant illustration. If you’re asking them to do something really difficult, which is turn on the floodgates, you may not have the number of conversions you want.

Like, there’s a lot of trust you got to put in Patrick’s agency to do that. But then he explained it through, well, look, here’s the timeline report, and you guys are clearly not looking at things the right way by being too aggressive on the low hanging fruit, right? So I’m guessing that’s the trust builder, like, we know what we’re doing.

Invest these 20, 000 to teach the machine so it can become more confident about its decisions. What does that conversation look like for you guys in terms of PMAX? I mean, PMAX, do you trust that? And how do you build that trust with the clients to go that that path?

KASIM ASLAM: I fish in a much smaller pond than Patrick does.

I think Adventure PPC is one of the premier agencies and has been for a really long time, ever since Isaac dropped that Udemy course and probably beforehand. So and this isn’t me, I hope I don’t offend you, Patrick. I think that the conversation when you’re talking to a more sophisticated entrepreneur is a little bit easier.

You know, if there’s, if they have a CMO or a director of marketing, it’s easier to say, I’ve got clients that I have to, I have to define what CAC is. I have to say, you know, and so when you’re having that conversation there’s a lot of managing expectations. And so we do nothing but negative self.

It’s like, look, it used to be 90 days, 50 percent of all Google ads campaigns fill in the first 90 days. That was my soundbite with P max. It’s six months. And so what I tell them with performance max, you have to let it run six weeks unencumbered without touching it. And then you think like, Oh, well, after six weeks I’ll have data.

No, you run it for six weeks and then on day one, you can start looking at the data and And deciding whether because it takes six weeks to learn so It’s a horrible sales pitch for small businesses and we’ve scared off a lot of people But i’d rather do that than take their take their business. I don’t want your rent money You know what?

I mean? And I feel like a lot of smbs. They they try to play that game with us So I manage expectations heavily. I let them know the way that performance max works. We’ve also had with smart shopping. I could just feel it. You came to me with a product of smart shopping I’m like dude three weeks 1200 row eyes.

Watch this You know, a lot of that might have been your traffic and smart shopping is remarkable Yeah, but smart shopping was unbelievable that way with performance max. I’ve been so wrong All the time. Somebody comes to me. I’m thinking, Oh, I’m going to knock this out of the park and it’s just like nothing but we’re three feet from gold.

Keep it going. Don’t stop. You know, I think we can make this work. And then there are products from just like there’s no way. And Google finds the buyer and then explodes it. So it right now for me is massively Yeah. I think that’s, I think it’s going to clear up as, as time moves forward. But the paradigm shift that all of us need to undergo is Google used to be a bottom of the funnel marketing mechanism.

Generally speaking, you can talk to me about displaying each of a little bit, but we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, you know, more often than not, even with their, their remarketing bottom of the funnel, PMAX is a full funnel marketing engine. And we’re not used to that as advertisers and business owners. And so we have to let PMAX kind of play in those top of the funnel worlds.

And when we do it, when you cheat performance, Max, God forgive me for saying, when you treat it a little bit more like Facebook ads, it’s pretty cool. The way that it, you know, the way that it functions, it can actually go out, find users, teach them, and then bring them back, especially with things like final URL expansion that blew me away.

That’s when I felt old the day I read what final URL expansion was. I was like, I don’t decide where the traffic goes. And that moment I was like, I’m an old man and I’m looking at, you know, it’s like, they’ve just upgraded the vehicle that I used to drive and I don’t know how to drive it anymore. Like that just, it’s just, I don’t know.

It really astounded me, but it works. It’s crazy.

PATRICK GILBERT: Well, on the expectations piece. One thing that I talk about a lot is first hit the ground yourself. Like if you’re going to stand and say I’m performance agency, I’m a performance marketer, and I’m not going to. Try and sell you on impressions or brand lift or whatever.

Like I, you know, hold me accountable to profit. And once you establish that, then you can have this next part of the conversation, which I think is really important because then it becomes, Hey, look, it’s not about when will this work? It’s about when do we think that this can work? So here’s an example of the B2B life cycle.

That’ll take 12 or 18 months to convert. There’s probably a leading indicator somewhere in there about like, all right, like. Things are trending in the right direction that I think that this can work and it’s still worth me investing in the longterm. And that’s, unfortunately, this is where it’s like, okay, well, we’re looking at time on site and engagement rate.

We’re looking at people that, you know, the percentage of people that seem to be in our target audience, which is like sort of the anti performance marketing argument, but it’s not, it’s really just like, we’re doing this first. So we can build something that can actually generate profit through your 18 month cycle or however long it’s going to take for Pmax to learn who that customer is.

Some of the times we’ll set up like events. I hate like micro conversions or something that like I think it’s not overblown, but I think like people kind of talk about it as if it’s like an easy solution, but there’s certain times where if you’re trying to identify your target audiences you could set up certain things on your site about like asking the user a question or figuring out if they’re going to choose this page instead of that page.

And if you create goals as simple as critical Google analytics and just see, okay, we launched this new campaign. What percentage of people are doing the thing that tells me that it’s the right person and then optimize for that over time and you’ll be kind of steering the ship in the right direction and eventually it’ll hit.

So if you can kind of tell the client that story and say, this is how we build a framework for success and these are the indicators that are ultimately going to lead to profit, that’s generally because essentially a lot of times as a marketing agency, you’re just buying time to wait for the ads to do the work that they need to do.

So it’s a lot of like, you just have to keep selling it and be like, listen, like here’s what we’re thinking about things. This looks like it’s going in the right direction. So let’s keep feeding it. And then eventually you just kind of have to hope that the lottery numbers hit when they do.

KASIM ASLAM: I’ve written down so many things that you’ve said, are these, do you have a whiteboard somewhere that you’re reading off of, or is this just coming to you?

Cause that’s brilliant as an agency. So many times you’re just buying time to let the ads do what they need to do. That’s so true. Yeah, I’m sharing that with my team right now. So you’re

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: nudging the machine to go into the right direction. So I like that. And that’s a lot of what I keep saying people should do as well.

Kassim, like what tips do you have? Like, again, you love PMAX. Have you found ways to nudge the machine or to mystify what’s in the black box a little bit? So Patrick nailed it earlier.

KASIM ASLAM: We, we don’t run TRO as at all, all of our, I’ve got my SOP pulled up here and we actually published this. It’s free.

There’s no opt in, but you can go to my Twitter account and download our. Performance max SOP that will show you exactly how it is that we build our PMAX campaigns, the amount of time that we let them run. But we’re using maximized conversion value. Generally speaking, unless you have a strong reason not to, which would usually mean your LTV is not disparate.

But we don’t run TRO as period. Cause if you run TRO as you put a, you put a lid on, on the ceiling of, of learning. The, the analogy that I really like, y’all remember them talking about the flea? If you put, you know, a flea can jump six feet, but if you put a flea in a box and put a lid on the box and leave the flea in there, after you take the lid off, the flea will never jump past where the lid was cause I guess it hid its That

PATRICK GILBERT: analogy, I like that.

KASIM ASLAM: It’s for self improvement, you know, it’s all about, like, if you keep somebody down, but it works for PMAX too, because if you put a lid on PMAX, even when you take it off, it’s really hard to draw it out of. Out of that. So we like to run no t rows. Now, keep in mind, according to Google if you don’t have a t rows applied, there’s an automatic 200 percent t row as target applied to your account.

So if you have a sub 200 percent target, you can actually put a sub 200 percent t rows in. That’s the caveat on the asterisk. But we like to run PMAX unencumbered for as long as you can. Don’t put T ROAS on for as long as you possibly can. And then you also want to do some things, I don’t like sculpting right now.

A lot of agencies come in there and it’s, it’s, it’s, it can be forgiven because they want to do the work. All of your products in one PMAX. All of your products. Because PMAX had the same problem that Smart Shopping has, which is the asset group that gets the click gets the remarketing. And if I buy, if I click on product A but buy product B, And you’ve separated those in two different campaigns.

You’re going to kill the cross pollination. So what we do is we have all of our products in one P max, but you then separate asset groups by product categories. And what you want to do is you want to take all your product categories, all the applicable audiences, and that’s how many asset groups you have.

So if I have five product categories and five audiences, and I have 25 asset groups, and then you also have an asset group for all of your products to each of the audiences, if, if you haven’t reached your a hundred asset group limit yet, as many asset groups as you can build asterisk, you have to have the budget to support that.

You have to have the budget to support that. And then here’s what’s freaking crazy. Google’s created media I i’ve got videos of this egg on my face. I was like don’t use it They’re horrible. The videos look like old powerpoint presentations. They crush we’ve got phenomenal videos That we split tested on accident really google ran theirs and we didn’t you know Because they had them automatically because god bless google and google’s videos are beating our videos On multiple levels of analysis across multiple clients and I have I have a theory as to why You I think it’s, it’s not that their videos are better.

It’s that because their videos are dynamically created. If I give Google a video, it has to live inside of certain proportions. And so the, the display. Capabilities are limited. If Google creates a video, it can put it anywhere it wants. And so I remember Google one time saying responsive search ads, or responsive ads, excuse me get 30 percent more permeation and penetration.

I think the same thing is true with video. I think you’re capitalizing on traffic that’s effectively free, and it’s crazy what happens when you, when you let it go. How was that? Was, I’ve got more, but I don’t want to, I’m gonna operate the conversation. I have a bad habit of doing that.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Yeah, I love it.

Let’s do another episode where we just go full on PMATs. This was great.

PATRICK GILBERT: I, I think that that was excellent. It seemed

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: like you wanted to say something, so go ahead.

PATRICK GILBERT: Yeah, I, I think that that was an incredible way to describe the benefits of liquidity across different asset groups and really budget.

And maybe saying like, Hey, listen, don’t over segment this stuff. Like set it up, create a framework for machine learning to do its thing. Don’t get in there with your, you know, meaty paws and ruin everything because you’re trying to split stuff out. Like, just let it, like, my attitude is typically like Google is, you know, Giving these recommendations in the way that you should set up campaigns for a reason.

So like start with the idea that like, it’s right. Start with the idea like Google’s probably right. And then find the situation where they’re wrong. Like the, the mantra that I always talk about with our team is like, never, never, always, never, never. Like, like never say that something works all the time or none of the time.

So there’s always an opportunity there. But if you start with that concept of like, okay, well, Google saying I should put every, all these things in one campaign. Maybe I should try, start with that and then iterate from there. But that’s really the benefit of, of kind of what’s going to happen in a machine learning environment.

So I think that that’s brilliant. And I’m going to, I’m definitely going to dive into the SOP you have and steal some of those ideas.

KASIM ASLAM: I’ve been stealing your quotes the whole day. So we’re going to be even.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Does it talk a little bit both of you about human splotchings? As ACs, you hire people a long time at a 14 inch volume. Out in transitions what are they working on nowadays?

KASIM ASLAM: Patrick, I’ll let you go first.

PATRICK GILBERT: So. You know, what’s, you know, like we’ve hired a lot of people that don’t really have any experience in this because we’ve found people from all walks of life that have a background in accounting or design or statistics or business consulting or whatever. And they just happen to mesh well with this type of work.

And it’s, it’s really creative problem solving role. That example I gave earlier about like, Hey, like you got to have a gut feeling about what the machine’s doing.

KASIM ASLAM: You

PATRICK GILBERT: have to have a gut feeling about confidence and accuracy. So there’s like a certain way that I think your mind has to be able to solve problems to succeed in this type of role.

But also you have to have the statistical and math acumen to be able to like do the work and understand what it is. Plus. The communication elements of it that like you write good headlines and you understand what a good advertisement looks like. So it’s a really weird thing. And I think that you can find those people anywhere as long as you can like cultivate them and train them.

The, the interesting thing is It’s it’s harder. I think now to get somebody to learn the material. It was easier when it was all manual. Like, I love now. So, so we don’t just exclusively take on larger clients. We take on clients of all different sizes and on a smaller client. Or I guess a larger client is more likely going to be sophisticated.

Like they’re more likely to come to us already having data driven attribution, already having sophisticated conversion tracking, and already being like opted into PMAX, but a smaller client is like still likely to be on manual bidding. And I think it’s so valuable for somebody to be able to learn how Google ads works and then teach them machine learning after they know what they’re doing.

Manual bidding and traditional account structure and skags and all that stuff, because it’s just easier to be like, Hey, look, search query is a signal. But there’s like millions of other signals that Google layers on top of it. But think about it for a second, that like for 15 years, all we did was look at search query as the signal.

And now you can understand, Oh, P max is that times like 3 million. And I think that that’s really something that helps people learn. And we’ve kind of built that into, we sort of simulated at this point with newer employees, we kind of train them to think in the same way that we were training people 10 years ago, we’re doing that now, and then layering the automation piece on top of it.

KASIM ASLAM: That’s really brilliant. It’s if, if a machine is going to do your job, you have to know the job the machine is doing.

PATRICK GILBERT: Yeah.

KASIM ASLAM: So don’t hire somebody to serve the machine. Hire somebody who knows how to do the job and then, and then monitor the machine. We’re having a

PATRICK GILBERT: Why, like if you’re, if you’re pre med, you’re going to learn organic chemistry.

You’re never going to have to know carbon compounds or whatever. But like That’s the same principle. It’s like, you really have to know the basics of how like these things work. So you have a strong foundation that you can build on top of.

KASIM ASLAM: Yeah. Yeah. That’s well stated. My, my favorite employees are, are all entrepreneurs.

And my favorite place to hire is from our, you know, y’all do courses. We do some coursework, not to your degree. But we hire people that have their own, their own business, their own income site, and they’re trying to make it work and I really, I like them because the, the way that they approach. The mechanism is with a goal in mind.

And if you approach the mechanism to do a job, I F I feel like it’s a, it’s actually, it’s a flawed expectation because you have a tool now and you’re like, all right, I’ve got a hammer. Let me go find nails. And that’s, that’s a scary place I think for anybody to, you know, now you’re just going to run around smacking things with your hammer.

And regardless of the output, you’re like, well, I use my hammer. I did my job. I like people that have approached Google ads with I know what I want it to do because that begin with the end in mind. Yeah. It changes the way they use Google. And sometimes Google’s not the answer. And sometimes it’s us telling clients, Hey, you need to find, you know, go influencer, go, go strategic partnerships, go organic.

And so I, I like zooming out of just the marketing mechanism and talking about you know, the endeavor at play. And, and you already touched on this a little bit, but you have to know. You have to think outside of just ads. You have to think about the business and the goals. And you know, you have to know rough economics and supply and demand and all that, all stuff that media buyers just didn’t need to know 18 months ago.

It wasn’t as relevant or as important.

PATRICK GILBERT: Yeah, absolutely. What do you, what do you think is. And I love that. Like we’ve hired a few people here that were entrepreneurs or ran their own agency for a little bit. And it is so interesting to see that they just, they think at a higher level or they just think at a different level than other individuals for better or worse, right?

Like it’s, there’s a, there’s a lot to be said for that as well. What do you think is the main thing that someone’s three to six months into the job and they’re doing They’re doing good work and they come to you and say, I want to grow within the organization. What are the things I need to learn? What do you think are the things that you’re like having people go out and take courses on or read books on

KASIM ASLAM: measurement measurement?

We put everybody through. Yeah. It’s just, it’s so important and everybody’s bad at it. You know, what’s really sad. I had Chris Mercer on my YouTube channel. Do y’all know Chris measurement marketing, I think is the most important voice in marketing. I had Chris on my YouTube channel. It was an hour long interview.

It was the best interview i’ve ever done in my entire life. He gave so much value nuts and bolts value I recently had Tom Breeze out on my YouTube channel and he goes, Oh, your lowest retention across all 400 videos was this Chris Mercer interview. It was the best content ever, but people are repelled by the topic.

They’re repelled by measurement. They don’t want to do it. And so I think if there’s, if for a marketer, if there’s anything that you can learn or know, it’s measurement. It’s, it’s how do we know this is working? You know, but nobody wants, they want to do creative. They want to do targeting. They want to do, you know, like big picture.

Technical, right? I mean,

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: you get into having to set up Google Tag Manager and figuring out how to write some JavaScript. So I can see where people are hesitant to go down that path, but maybe that’s what we should be hiring more of them, right? Based on what you’re saying. So that makes total sense.

PATRICK GILBERT: I do well, meaning that you said that that’s your lowest retention.

That’s so like, that’s the crux of like the content marketing problem is like the best content is like, and I remember seeing these years ago that like HubSpot’s number one blog of like all time is just titled like how to do Microsoft Excel. That’s just like literally nothing to do with like what HubSpot’s value proposition is.

The best book I’ve read in probably the last three years is called How Brands Grow by a guy named Byron Sharp. It’s very technical. It’s very, it’s kind of boring. But it’s absolutely brilliant. And it’s the sort of thing that like, I wish every single marketer read, but they don’t because it’s not written by a guru.

It’s not like fun to read or talk about. You really have to like be in a quiet room, like going through these concepts. And it’s something that completely changed. There’s a bit of measurement in layered in there, but it’s more about like some higher level, like thinking about strategic branding. But I agree.

And it’s like, why aren’t more people reading this? And it’s like, Oh, cause it’s hard and it’s technical. People. Don’t want to embrace that. So I’m definitely gonna check out that video and I’m totally going to say, I already wrote down the

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: video. We’ll put the book in the show notes so people can easily find it.

And that’s our job. Right. Be somewhat entertaining and then drop a nugget here and there of like, this is the thing you actually need to pay attention to, like, after you’re done with us we’re coming closer to the the end of the hour. Both of you tell people where they can find you any final thoughts on maybe something we haven’t covered.

But yeah, how can custom, what should people do after watching this video besides checking out your other YouTube videos?

KASIM ASLAM: You can follow me on Twitter. I say some obnoxious, unimportant things. Yeah. And if people want to work with you, where do they find you? They can go to so late S O L, the number eight.com. sol8.com.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Awesome. And you can hit them up for lots of PMAX advice. That’s

KASIM ASLAM: right.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Patrick, what about you? Where can folks find you if they want to work with Adventure media?

PATRICK GILBERT: Well, find me on LinkedIn and Twitter, Patrick Gilbert. You’ll stumble across me somewhere. I don’t post as much as I would like to.

But maybe if my follower account goes up, it’ll encourage me to be more interactive. adventureppc. com is our website. Check us out. We have a lot of great content hidden in there. I mentioned that blog post that we just put up about attribution. Definitely check that out. And then of course my book, Join or Die, Digital Advertising in the Age of Automation.

We actually have an audio version finally coming out within the next like two to three months. It is, that is not an easy thing to do. That’s with that book in front of your face again. It was off screen.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: Make sure people can see it right there.

PATRICK GILBERT: The one with the snake.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: There you go.

PATRICK GILBERT: That’s Ben Franklin.

Ben Franklin.

FREDERICK VALLAEYS: All right, well, hey, thanks everybody for watching our show today. It’s been fun hanging out with Patrick and Kasim. So if you like these videos, please subscribe to the YouTube channel. Use the button at the bottom. You can also go to pptownhall. com, subscribe to the email list. We’ll tell you when there’s a new episode ready to be dropped.

And then if you haven’t tried Optmyzr, that’s a great tool. We, we don’t do a lot of the attribution stuff we’ve been talking about today, but once you get the measurements, we’ll help you execute on your plan and actually make PPC work for you. So thanks for watching and we’ll see you for the next episode.

Bye now.