Succeeding with less data and control

Episode Description

Losing control over your ad campaigns sucks. But don’t just sit there… go around it.

The last episode of PPC Town Hall in 2020 covers one of the hottest topics in search marketing, with an expert panel with plenty of experience getting around data restrictions and control issues.

This panel covers:

• Discussing omnichannel strategies
• Targeting in a post-cookie world
• Automation for audiences, bidding & omnichannel budget allocation
• Tracking and updating campaigns to leverage machine learning
• Patrick’s new book, “Join or Die: Digital Advertising in the Age of Automation”

Episode Takeaways

Discussing Omnichannel Strategies: Omnichannel approaches emphasize the importance of expanding beyond typical platforms like Google and Facebook to explore opportunities in channels like LinkedIn, Snapchat, and Roku. This can lead to unique targeting benefits not available on more saturated platforms.

Targeting in a Post-Cookie World: The conversation highlighted the importance of adapting to the reduction of third-party cookies by leveraging first-party data more effectively. This involves creative strategies for audience building and maintaining privacy compliance while delivering personalized marketing messages.

Automation for Audiences, Bidding & Omnichannel Budget Allocation: Automation is crucial for efficiently managing bids and budgets across channels, allowing marketers to focus on strategic and creative aspects of campaigns. The discussion also touched on utilizing automated tools for better decision-making and reporting.

Tracking and Updating Campaigns to Leverage Machine Learning: Effective use of machine learning in advertising campaigns requires precise conversion tracking and clear communication of business goals to the algorithms. This ensures that automation aligns closely with the desired business outcomes.

Patrick Gilbert’s Book, “Join or Die: Digital Advertising in the Age of Automation”: Patrick introduced his book, which explores the impact of automation and machine learning in digital advertising. The book discusses how these technologies are reshaping the industry and offers insights into how agencies can adapt to these changes.

Episode Transcript

Frederick Vallaeys: Hello and welcome to another episode of PPC Town Hall. We’re live and I’m your host, Fred Vallaeys. I’m also the co founder and CEO at Optmyzr. So this is the final episode we’re doing for 2020 and I can’t believe it, but this is already episode number 30 and we started this back in March, so thank you for joining us.

And we wanted to bring back some really great panelists to do the final episode. So we’ve got Joe Martinez, Michelle Morgan, two people you’ve seen before. And then we have Patrick Gilbert, who’s a new panelist. So they’re going to be sharing with us today. And some of the topics we wanted to talk about, we wanted to stay you know, relatively tactical for all of you joining us.

So we’re going to be talking about some of the shifting trends that we see in PPC around audiences, around privacy, around going back to the office, maybe working remotely and, and speak about how that’s going to impact our lives, our careers, and how we work with our customers. So that’s the episode we got lined up for today.

So let’s get rolling with.

All right. And here are our panelists for today. So Michelle, good to have you on the show again. Welcome back.

Michelle Morgan: Thanks for having me.

Frederick Vallaeys: Where are you calling from?

Michelle Morgan: I am in snowy Indianapolis. We have our first snow day today and I already hate it. So that’s about how it’s going. Yeah.

Frederick Vallaeys: And is that early or late snow for Indianapolis?

Michelle Morgan: It’s airing on early, but it’s pretty normal. Yeah. Okay. It’s already December, right? Yeah. I’m in California in the Bay area. I’ve been, I’m still in short sleeves, as you can tell. I’ve been complaining about the rain that we recently got that we could use it. I’ll try to. I don’t know. I mean, honestly, like, I’ll trade anyone at this point for the ability to get on a plane safely and just get out of town.

Frederick Vallaeys: Like, I’ll even go through the snow. Joe, welcome back as well. You’re still in the same basement as last week, right?

Joe Martinez: Yep. Yep. Haven’t moved.

Frederick Vallaeys: All right Your beard is just a little bit longer.

Joe Martinez: No, it’s it’s already shaved already. So you’re welcome.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah Yeah, for those of you who didn’t join us last week Joe’s in his basement in Milwaukee and one thing we love to do is Everyone watching if you want to say hello and where you’re calling us from and tell us what the better is like and whether you hate It or I love it, right makes it a little bit more personal and then we got first timer Patrick it looks like you’re looking outside the window to me to You Is it raining?

Where are you right now?

Patrick Gilbert: So I’m in Long Island, New York. I had to double check. There’s many days that I’m obviously in my bedroom, but there’s many days I go by where I forget to open the shades. And just completely miss. I don’t know what day it is. I don’t know what month it is. I have no idea if it’s light out, dark out, raining, snowing, whatever.

So we’re just taking it in strides.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah. Many of us before it’s like Groundhog Day these days, right? Absolutely. Hey, we got Ari saying Patrick is my hero. So tell, so you’re the first timer on the show, right? So tell people a bit about who you are and what you do.

Patrick Gilbert: Sure. I’m the executive director at Adventure Media Group.

We’re based Long Island, New York. We’ve been around for about seven years. Started as a traditional like PPC agency. Like a lot of other folks that I’m sure are familiar with the show over time, we’ve grown into more of a consultative digital advertising house where we work with clients, not just on the execution of like the paid media, but also the planning, the attribution everything that kind of goes along with strategy.

But one of the reasons I’m here is just authored and released a new book. Join or die digital advertising in the age of automation. It basically it tells a lot more about who we are as a, as a company at a venture media group, but also a lot about what’s happening in the digital advertising space with automation, machine learning, and my personal experience with it.

And what I think is going to happen with the future of digital ad agencies.

Frederick Vallaeys: I mean, I love that. So Patrick, what’s going to happen? Let me focus that a little bit more first if I may. So sorry, like, Oh God, my coffee machine. There’s my technical fail for today. But obviously none of you are at the office, right?

Like you think you’re going to go back to the office in 2021. And as an agency, like, how much does having an office matter? What are your thoughts on that?

Patrick Gilbert: I guess I’ll take that. So we will definitely go back. We have a great office that we just put a lot of work into making it much more open and beautiful, and it’s a really great space.

So I think that we’ll go back. We’ll see what happens in the beginning of 2021. Most of our team is within driving distance. A lot of our, a lot of our team members team members live a pretty short distance away from the office. But I imagine we’ll have some sort of hybrid model where we’ll. The in and out depending on what’s gonna happen.

I do think that there’s something to be said about being with your team, not just from a collaboration standpoint, but I think it really helps. Just like when you’re going through something with other people and things get really stressful and overwhelming, I think that there’s something to know that the person next to you is also going through that.

And I’ve personally found that it’s harder to convey that sort of companionship and being able to lean on your peers remotely. Absolutely. We’re getting better at it. I mean, it’s been nine, 10 months at this point, but I do, I do really appreciate being with other people in the same setting, but I know other people don’t like have different plans.

So yeah, I enjoy Michelle. What does that look like for you guys? And is there any software that you’ve put in place to sort of help with this besides maybe zoom?

Michelle Morgan: Yeah, so the, the good news about us is we never left the office we’re, we’re remote all the time, so everything has been the same over the course of the year but some of the stuff that we have done, we have always kind of needed to lean into some of that kind of team camaraderie, that sort of thing that you’re talking about, Patrick, that is Thanks, Pat!

Definitely one of the bigger challenges with having everybody on the team be remote. So we tend to have a lot of group calls. One of the more common things that we do is we just have a team happy hour and it’s literally just us once a week at this point. We usually do every other week, depending. But it’s just get on the phone for an hour and everybody chat and just talk about basically anything but work to try and have some of that same sort of water cooler conversation, if you will, that you would have in an office.

But we also use like chat functionality for on Skype and a few other things where we can just have conversations throughout the day. It’s via text as opposed to face to face, but it ends up doing close to the same thing.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah. And so one question maybe for Joe, but so there’s a camaraderie within the team, but then there’s also as an agency, how do you find new clients?

And I think oftentimes you go out to conferences and you do networking. Obviously that has gone away. How do you deal with that? Given that there’s no more office.

Joe Martinez: Yeah, I mean, we, we still kind of, it’s kind of the way that we’ve always done it is reaching out as much as possible. So there’s always at least a couple of clicks, blogs going out.

Every single week besides clicks, all the other industry publications that our team is writing for. It’s heavily encouraged Michelle and I have the YouTube channels, just looking at alternative ways that, you know, besides that in person type conference we still doing webinars and the virtual conferences itself.

So we’re still making the reach out there, but I think there has to be more effort and just different ways that we have gone about doing it. And just. Expecting that conference itself. And I think speaking for ourselves, I think the one of the biggest ways clicks has always gotten business has always been referrals.

So, I mean, as long as we keep doing the good work, it’s we haven’t really seen the dip there.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, and I suppose people are still communicating virtually, even if they’re, I just sort of feel like there’s that whole. When people go to conferences, they, they loosen up a little bit. They have a few drinks to be honest, right?

And that’s about like this agency actually good.

Joe Martinez: Yeah. I found out personally just doing the virtual conferences. Like they’re good for the reach. They’re good for the awareness. People like hearing that on pitches and everything. So I think it helps from that sales aspect that you can say we’re still involved in all this, but in terms of like getting the direct leads, like to me, it’s night and day, like you can talk to people who watch you present.

After you’ll get people walking up to you in a live person conference, so many of these ones that were typical good conferences switched to virtual. It’s just dead. You can’t tell people are paying attention. There’s like nothing afterwards. There’s no follow up. So it’s, it’s definitely a big difference, but.

It’s also one of the ways that we’re not really hurting from.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, and it’s sort of weird because now you do these virtual things, and actually we have much bigger audiences than if we did it in the room at SMX, for example, where we’d be splitting the audiences with so many people, and because people can go on demand, just there’s a bigger audience.

But you’re right, you don’t get that sense of, like, am I actually connecting with the audience? Is this, like, over their heads? Are they entertained? And you know, as presenters, we sort of tweak to that. So that’s the challenge here as well, right? Completely.

Michelle Morgan: Yeah, I have been known to stomp on the stage to make sure people are paying attention.

So I really need that feedback. So just talking out into the ether is a little bit strange.

Frederick Vallaeys: Have you ever walked out on a presentation just to see people noticed No, I want to try it

All right, so let’s shift her into the topic of audiences, right so we’re talking about everything being virtual So ultimately whether it’s for us as agencies or me as software Like we’re trying to find new customers and that that’s about building audiences and connecting with them that way for anyone watching on the show today, you have different goals, obviously.

But how do you build an audience these days?

Michelle Morgan: So are you meaning like first party data or just how do you build an audience in the platforms? Because I mean, there’s kind of two tactical ways to do it.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, you’re right. That’s a very broad question. So let’s talk about first party, right? So because I think there’s this whole movement towards going away from third party data and buying audiences So with what you have for yourself, what’s what’s the right way to build an audience?

Michelle Morgan: So I think that we’re, we’re obviously still tied in as much as we can be with the ways to reach out through the platforms and like what targeting options are available to us. But one of the ways that you can build your first party data, at least in, in the time before a lot of the targeting options go away or they become more restricted is a little bit of a soapbox that I’ve been on for a little while.

It’s that especially with like lead generation Stop having every call to action you use in your campaigns be a demo request, or a purchase, or whatever is the bottom funnel piece. Create value by utilizing either different pieces of content, whether it’s a webinar, a white paper, we all love white papers.

If it’s a quiz, something like that a calculator. Find some way to provide value to your clientele that doesn’t require them to just jump all the way to the bottom funnel stage. And then gate. Whatever that piece is, so you can build your first party data, your CRM data, because they’ve basically opted into it by giving you their email address, their name, phone number, all that sort of thing.

I think one of the biggest things is that for the longest time whether, whether I like it or not, We, as marketers have mostly relied on the bottom funnel calls to action because for the most part they’ve worked well enough to where everybody’s at least seeing a relatively close to positive return or even when it comes to advertising and other channels kind of help back that up.

But we’re getting to a point where that’s really not going to work. People are spending a lot more time online because there’s nothing to do. And we need to give them. A smarter way to engage with brands online and providing value to them is something that’s a lot easier. We can just share the knowledge that we already have about our industry, our company, whatever it is, and then just gate that with just a quick form, something along those lines to help build your first party data.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, so I’ll be present along the whole consumer journey and offer little nuggets of gold along the way. And I guess it’s interesting, right? Because that is basically building the relationship slowly and building the trust. Kind of like what we’ve been doing in person many times, but now we’ve got to take that online.

But you’re right, people are spending much more time online. And that was not even driven by the fact that we’re all sitting at home. That’s just more and more touch points. More and more devices. I mean, I know, I know you guys have kids too, but like trying to get my son off of his like phone and tablet and the virtual school, it’s like, Oh my God.

A good job points every day. Copy Patrick. What’s it look like for you guys at adventure media when you’re building audiences, any, any specific tactics or tools that you like to use? So I love this idea of like white papers, right? Like, but how do you build those landing pages? How do you. Combine those leads.

How do you keep track of your audience?

Patrick Gilbert: Yeah, I think Michelle brings up a great, a great point with having, I guess, sort of like micro conversions along the way and gated content. I also think that there’s a need to have something that you’re. Giving for free even before then a lot of clients that we’ve worked with have jumped to like gating a white paper But if no one’s ever heard of you before and you haven’t done something to establish trust nobody wants your white paper.

So I think that there’s a balance between having blog content or FAQs or something of value a YouTube channel That’s completely accessible to the general public and then something that’s a step above that to Michelle’s point of, Hey, you know, people already know who I am. They already trust that I’m a thought leader or that I have something good to say about X, Y, Z topic or industry or whatever, whatever your niche is.

And here’s something of even more value that I can now put behind a gate and, and sort of now have that relationship that we can take that next level. And I think that’s a great way to meet. Massive reach, but also kind of creating that conversion funnel at the same time because ultimately if If people are ultimately going to pay for whatever your product or services, they’re probably going to be willing to take those golden nuggets along the way that, that you’ve kind of expressed it.

So that’s something that we’ve been talking about clients. Like you can’t just have a landing page with one call to action or a landing page with one call to action to sub call actions is down on our white paper. You need something else that, that shows who you are and shows that you’re worth anyone’s time.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah. And let’s unpack the whole thought leadership thing a little bit. Right. So. I speak to a lot of people at conferences and everyone’s like, Hey, how do I build thought leadership? How do I get to ride for search engine land? Michelle, you were the number one, most influential PPC expert of 2020.

So you’ve obviously figured something out here. You know,

you weren’t doing too shabby on that list either. What were you? Number three, three. Three. And I was stuck in number six, I think, or number five or whatever. And Patrick, you’ve written a book, right? So obviously, I mean, these are all thought leadership plays that we’ve made. But how do you start with that?

I mean, if, if you don’t have it right now because it’s easy to say, like, put the great content out there and produce something of great value, but that doesn’t mean people are going to find it. Right. So how do you start

Joe Martinez: for us? I think it’s in terms of dedication. I know a lot of people could say like, like you said, how come I’m not writing for anything?

You know, have you even put in the effort? I think so many of us who’ve done a lot of speaking, writing presentations, we stayed up late at night finishing decks. We’ve worked on weekends to do these blogs, these presentations. Michelle and I put in hours. Every single week with two videos a week that takes a lot of time and you have to have the dedication and the consistency.

To show, like, if you want to build an audience to like a YouTube channel or a podcast, people are need to expect that content is always going to be there at the cadence that you set. So if you have to be willing to give up your time and most likely it’s not going to be part of your job, it’s going to be your own time.

And that’s the type of effort that takes building it one, not for your personal, but think of it from a business side too. If a client wants to consistently build audience, we want a YouTube channel. Great. How often are you going to have a new video? That’s going to be worthwhile for us to promote. Oh, maybe like, you know, once every two months, it’s not going to work unless you get some massive cool viral one.

It’s just not going to work. So it that is the type of dedication that is needed both for, I think, personal and business branding.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, that makes sense. So you’re not going to produce one piece of content and that’s like the thing that just takes off. I think many of us, we, we write many pieces of content.

And so for example, the book that I wrote, I don’t know how long it took you, Patrick, but it was basically the combination of Two years of thought of initially speaking to people, then starting to blog about it, then sort of refining the message and then putting it all together and spending countless hours actually putting that book together.

And then it’s funny because now that book becomes sort of the, the P the one piece of content that you can give many presentations about at many different locations, but just to get to the point of having that content is a two year process. And then the other thing that I’ve personally found is, you know, you work with people in the same industry.

Like that is your, that is a great test audience. Like have lunch with, so when I was working at Google, right. Like a lot of people stopped having lunch together. They would just like work at their desks. And I was like, that’s stupid because like that lunchtime, that’s the best time you have to actually interact with people and just throw some random ideas out there.

And maybe it’s an idea you’ve been developing, but like, how do you phrase it? How do you verbalize it? Do you, do you, do you have it down? In a way that it actually makes sense to people very quickly And so that was part of my process of helping to build presentations and explaining difficult concepts in ppc right so and if you don’t have that find a network right find a community of other ppc experts and then like do those little Small interactions, because that eventually leads you into having a really succinct message that you can blog about, that you can speak about, that you can put in the presentation.

And then by the way, like when you do these presentations, film them because a lot of speaking panels these days, they ask for a video, like, show us what you’ve done before. And you may not have that, right. You may not have spoken to a big audience, but at least they can see you on stage having some presence, some charisma.

And hopefully that’s something that convinces them that you’re ready to entail leadership. Yeah. I mean, it, it took me. Two years of pitching to like search engine land conferences. And I think it took me two years before someone accepted me. So it’s, it’s one of those things where you may not get in right away.

Joe Martinez: It’s, it’s, it can be tough, especially now that there’s really, aren’t a lot of people are sticking with what works for a little bit, but like, I think it’s. You have to have the dedication and the willpower to just keep it going. But I think the counterpoint to that is it’s, it’s also a new opportunity, right?

Frederick Vallaeys: Because they want the speakers who are known to do well, but because it’s virtual and because they could have more sessions and because there’s actually a lot of companies, I mean, PPC town hall didn’t exist last year. There’s a whole bunch of new webinar type things that just didn’t exist. So these are opportunities to get your feet wet.

And then when we go back to being on stage, you’ll have something to show. Patrick, if you want to say, I think

Patrick Gilbert: if you want to make a commitment to producing high quality content, you also need to have a commitment to consuming high quality content. On a consistent basis, you really need to be seeking more education, more perspective and challenging schools of thought.

And I think that’s something that not enough people who are trying to break into the thought leadership space have really sought out a unique blog or a book that other people aren’t talking about because that’s gonna help you get a unique voice. And as part of that, I think Fred, to your point of spending two years on a topic, kind of playing around with these ideas in your head and then being able to translate it into a book.

Part of what I find so valuable out of writing content or talking on a podcast or writing an article, whatever it is is that it holds you accountable to really know your stuff. One of the most humbling experiences for me. Was when I was writing join or die a few of the earlier chapters talk about some basic principles in the Google ads platform That I like really needed to make sure I knew and I just spent days just going through Google support docs, really making sure that I knew my stuff.

And the same goes for if you have a presentation that you’re giving to a client, you really want to know your stuff. You’re going to do your research. You’re going to do the hard work. And I think that’s the ancillary benefit of producing content. Yeah. Is that you’ll hold your own, expertise to a very high standard.

Frederick Vallaeys: I know and it’s nerve wracking Right when you put that book out and you’re waiting for the reviews to come in. You’re like, oh But you’ve done pretty well. I’ve been writing it. Do you have a 5 star rating on Amazon right now?

Patrick Gilbert: What’s that?

Frederick Vallaeys: Do you have a 5 star average rating on Amazon right now?

Patrick Gilbert: We’re doing well so far, yes.

I appreciate everyone that has contributed with the review. But yeah, to your point, I mean, literally, this, you know, the book took a little over a year to write. And I kept having to go back and change things because the platform was evolving and policies were being updated. It was, it was very stressful

Frederick Vallaeys: and let’s talk a little bit about another thing thought leadership related.

I’d love to hear from Michelle on this spot. I think a fear that some agencies and some practitioners have is that, you know, to produce really good content, you got to spill the beans. You got to share the secrets to some degree. And it’s like, well, you know, is that taking away my competitive advantage then?

So, so how do you guys think about that at clicks?

Michelle Morgan: So to be quite honest, I, it completely goes against the normal logic because you would think, Oh, I tell people what I do and it gives away all the secrets and all that sort of thing. That’s not actually really the case. Because you can talk about a high level kind of strategy and an approach to doing something, but when it comes down to actually like pulling the levers, punching the keys, all that sort of thing, it’s going to be different for every single business that you engage with, and everything is going to be a little bit different.

So even though you’re talking at a, at what seems like a very strategic level about a specific strategy that you roll out or tactic that you have, whatever it is It’s going to manifest very differently for every business that you roll it out with. And I have found that usually some of the more specific and like new strategy types of discussions that I have, people actually end up coming to me more because they’re like, That’s the kind of stuff that they don’t normally encounter.

They don’t read it in a blog post. They can learn what their keyword match types mean and all that kind of stuff in a blog post. But if you’re talking about like audience shaping or something along those lines, like people want you to. Do that for them rather than them having to learn how to do it so it actually is a little bit counterintuitive, but usually when you show Your thought leadership there might be some other agencies that start to kind of take what you do and morph on it I’ll i’ll admit i’m guilty of doing that from other people’s presentations if i’m not learning Why am I even there?

Yeah, exactly. We all do that. But it actually ends up growing business more when you talk about some of your more specific strategies, you just don’t give away every single little nitty gritty decision that you make, because first of all, that would be a super boring presentation if you do that anyway, because it’s not gonna apply to everybody in the room.

You’re talking about stuff that people don’t care about. So it actually works in your favor to talk about things that are more strategic and thought leadership oriented, even though it might seem like you’re giving away all your secrets. Transcribed

Frederick Vallaeys: Makes sense. So my producer’s egging me on. He’s like, Hey, we promised people we’d talk about Omni channel.

So let’s talk about Omni channel. All right. So, but Joe, I think you have some thoughts on this. So as Google always keeps getting more expensive, kind of taking away some of our data. Right. So what other options are you looking at and, and how do you put all the pieces together? And so sort of something Michelle also touched on how people have various touch points.

So let’s talk about omni channel. What do you guys do? Yeah, I, I personally am all about doing what’s right and finding where your target audience is not necessarily going where. Everyone else goes right away, which is Google and Facebook. They could be the best channels at the time. I still would always promote that.

Joe Martinez: It’s good to capitalize on high search intent, but at the same time, it’s understanding for each particular account, like what’s the brand awareness. Do I need to expand? Not only that, like, can I find the same audience cheaper in other channels? The channels themselves, just the default targeting options are different between all these different platforms.

Have you researched it to find out which is the best one to capitalize on the deepest intent first before you start growing and starting filling more of the top of the funnel? So I mean, I will always be, even though it is Google, I’m still a YouTube guy. One just in terms of like the audience collection that we could do and use for other campaigns.

Always been a big Cora guy because a lot of the Competitor stuff that we can do is insanely cheap compared to Google, Facebook, and especially LinkedIn. So it’s really just spending the time and researching and starting out with what’s going to make sense first. And then you can always start testing out and shifting budgets around to a variety of those different channels.

But to me, it comes down to whatever the. Account or companies or campaign goals are figuring out that first and which channel has the best option to get in front of that audience first. I’m, I never am going to go to just, okay, you need to go all Google or all Facebook first. I don’t have that mentality anymore.

And I actually really hate that mentality because it just doesn’t work. I’m

Patrick Gilbert: with you a hundred percent on that, Jeff. I think like one of the things that we’ve certainly improved upon over the last couple of years is especially B2B clients. push back into like, Oh, well, Facebook’s not for us. Like we’re, we’re an enterprise.

Like our audience isn’t on Facebook or a B2C company that’s saying like our audience isn’t on LinkedIn or YouTube or whatever it is. They’re there, like the data shows that they’re there. And if like, I actually, I would argue the complete opposite that if you’re selling. Enterprise software. And if some, if you’re, if you can find your target audience on Instagram and most people’s Instagram feeds are filled with B2C type products.

And here’s an ad for a really relevant product you know, project management software that somebody might be in the market for, then you’re the only one you’re like standing out on the platform. Like everybody sees. Like when I go to, let’s say LinkedIn, I see a million ads for product project management software.

But the one that speaks to me on YouTube, which I’ll tell you directly, it’s monday. com. I see monday. com ads every time I go on YouTube. And I’ve never used monday. com and I’m doing free advertising for them right now. They’ve been able to reach me across all these platforms. And the next time I’m in the market for a product like that, they’re the first ones that are going to come to mind because they’ve been willing to meet me.

Yeah,

Michelle Morgan: it’s surprising how much you can find your audience in other places. While we still have the third party data available, like I absolutely love targeting somebody on LinkedIn and then creating an audience of those folks on Facebook and following them around Facebook you know, in the creepiest ways because you can reach your enterprise clients on Facebook because Almost everybody has Facebook, right?

I mean, maybe not the younger folks, but they’re not gonna sign a contract at a big company anyway. Sorry, it’s not your job yet. So you can find those folks everywhere. You just might need to get a little bit creative. And like Joe said, go out and find what types of targeting options are available within each platform.

Because you never know what’s gonna be available. Like if you look into Snapchat, they have a lot of stuff from like Nielsen, Datalogix, all these different third party List providers that you can’t find on any of the other platforms. You might think that your target audience isn’t on Snapchat, but they very well might be.

And that might be the best targeting option you can use to get in front of them, at least from one channel. And then you can supplement that with things across YouTube and all the other platforms as well.

Frederick Vallaeys: And how do you make those decisions on what channel to go to next? Right? I mean, I think the obvious decision is like Google, Facebook, like Joe was saying, because those are the big ones and we’re pretty well understood.

We’ve all managed those, but how do you, how do you commit to something maybe a little newer where as an agency, maybe you don’t have that much experience, that many people to run those ads and, and how do you strike the balance of, can we actually drive good enough results within the budget that our client has given us or any like nuggets of great tools out there to manage some of these more niche platforms?

Michelle Morgan: Yeah, I mean, when it comes down to determining which channel to go into next, it’s kind of the same decision process. It’s like, okay, so we want to get into a new platform, what type of budget do we have available that needs to be kind of an allocated test budget? Because I think the phrase, always be testing, gets misinterpreted for always be winning.

Tests can lose. You can be a loser. You cannot, like, you cannot beat your previous version sometimes. So have a test budget that allows you that if it works, great, put in more budget. But if it doesn’t, you can’t just say that that needs to be like the end all be all and you’re graded on that scale because it’s meant to be a test.

So go in, put together a budget that you know will give you enough results to determine if something works, but also It’s not going to hurt too much if you don’t see good results coming out of it. So it’s kind of a combination of determining which channels have the best targeting options that you’re not in yet.

Prioritizing that, giving it a dedicated budget, and then if that works, great. If it doesn’t, move on, test something new. Yeah, and you see, you said experimentation doesn’t mean always winning, but I think the counterpoint to that that people should remember is It’s also not always losing. So keep track, right?

Frederick Vallaeys: Be, and I think the engines actually do a fairly poor job of telling you if your experiments consistently, consistently lose right. Because that has basically wasted opportunity and maybe it’s time to go and test something else, right? Don’t be testing more platforms test something else, test bit management or test whatever else you can do.

Patrick Gilbert: I think there’s three questions that we would ask on that, on that topic. The first is, can our audience. Is our audience available? Can we actually find our audience on this platform through this channel? And I think you really need to do your research before saying no to that you’d be surprised at what sort of reach roku advertising has they claim to reach four and five households in the u.

s they have like a really really robust platform I don’t personally own a roku device, but i’m sure that they can find me There’s some of the things that I use. So the audience number one, the second is the creative. So the question is like, one, can I develop video content that’s going to be quality?

And if I guess Roku is like a, an OTC channel, so it needs to be really high quality if you’re going to get away with an ad there. If it’s a little bit of lesser quality, maybe you’re a resistant or maybe you’re kind of limited to a channel like Facebook video or Instagram stories or something like that.

But also the question is like, do I have a story that can come across on a Spotify ad? If I have something that needs to be completely visual. Then maybe Spotify isn’t right for me. And then so that’s just kind of figuring out what your creative capabilities are and how you can tell your brand story.

The third component of it is attribution. How can we figure out how to measure results here and tie something back to whether or not we’re actually doing anything productive or just lighting money on fire? And figuring out it’s not always just that bottom line revenue number. It’s a lot of times, especially with some of these more top funnel types of channels.

You need to figure out what is that Minimum viable conversion. The MVC is like a topic that we throw out a lot. What is that minimum viable conversion that we’re optimizing for with something that’s a little bit more broad that we can measure against a different type of similar Ad channel

Frederick Vallaeys: and MMA is making the point there that if Google ads take the closed approach, then we’re all screwed. So I thought it was interesting. I was reading the Wall Street Journal this morning. This was the ad on the back of the front section, and it’s basically Facebook going to war with Apple right there. In the in the newspaper, so Facebook complaining that apple is making it hard to do very specific audience targeting and then basically making the claim that that’s going to kill small business who relies heavily on the facebook ad platform and saying and at least acknowledging that facebook itself will be hurt by that decision from apple But kind of framing it as it’s actually hurting the small businesses more. But yeah, I mean as far as these closed systems and I think michelle then you were touching on it, too Like you you talked about creepy advertising which I know you were joking about But but creepy advertising is really when you start talking to one person individually. You’re like, hey isaac, you know I I know you don’t have a roku tv, but like now we snuck into your tv anyway and told you you should be buying monday.

com Right. And I think that leads into the question of how big and how granular do you get with audiences before it’s maybe not quite as effective before it starts becoming creepy. So what do you do about audience sizes?

Michelle Morgan: I mean, there’s a bit of a balance to be had there. So, I mean, People know that you’re able to target them based on what they do on the web, how they engage.

At this point, I’ve said things around my phone and then it shows up. Like, I was having a conversation about Cholula hot sauce one time and an ad showed up later that day. So, everybody, you’re welcome for that. They’re probably going to target you now because they heard you through the speakers. I think that people are a little less weary about being creeped out and the ads just don’t work as well.

You just don’t see the results cause I think that maybe five, six years ago people would be really creeped out, but I think that everybody is more educated now and they understand how things work. So it’s not necessarily that they’re really creeped out. They’re more just irritated by you being there. So your performance isn’t going to be as good if you kind of continue to go after the same sets of people.

You, you get a benefit by targeting a really specific group of people because those should be the right folks. And that kind of leads into basic advertising best practices, if you will, target the audience that’s going to be the most relevant to you. But on the flip side, When, especially on some of these social channels any type of more push advertising, so any of like the top of funnel stuff, like display, whatever it is, the bigger your audience is, the lower your incremental costs will be.

So the larger your audience is on Facebook, the lower you’re gonna pay in CPMs, which is, Really, when it comes down to it, how we get charged at this point, even though it says CPC and you’d like pay attention to what that is, because even though your audience might be huge, you might actually see good returns on it because you’re getting that discount benefit on the CPMs and the CPCs and Facebook is smart enough that it’s gonna try and target the right people within that audience to hit your conversion action anyway.

So there’s not really a right or wrong reason. The Thing that you could do the worst is to try and like super control a Facebook audience But it also doesn’t have to be huge, but that doesn’t mean that those are wrong either I mean people have done experiments with just broad targeting and which literally is just run of facebook network Take my conversion pixels and go find me more audience.

Sometimes that works so I think that we’re finding that the automation and learning from some of these platforms can kind of You know Balance out and help us get away from some of our long held advertising. Best practices of only target your specific audience because that’s who’s gonna convert.

That’s not always true.

Frederick Vallaeys: Well, and the difference is automation, right? So it’s no longer about us having to figure out who’s the right audience and what’s the right size. But just let the machine handle it. Because ultimately, if we tell it what the goal is, And we’re precise about the goal, then it can go and do that job for us.

And we don’t have to worry about it.

Michelle Morgan: At least to some degree on some platforms that helps on other platforms like LinkedIn, you probably need to have a little bit more of a tighter rein on it.

Frederick Vallaeys: Good point. Some platforms are a little bit

Michelle Morgan: advanced, if you will.

Frederick Vallaeys: Well, that’s the advertisers need to spend more money on LinkedIn than they’ll have money to actually invest in machine learning, right?

I’d love to

Michelle Morgan: get some of my clients on LinkedIn. I hope they’re watching. That would be great.

Joe Martinez: I think one click will double their budget, right? Everyone just needs one click and there you go.

Frederick Vallaeys: I don’t know if anyone else comments on this, but one thing that Michelle was talking about I think like expiring your audience list is kind of an interesting thing because you talked about the annoyance factor and I mostly get annoyed if I’ve now gone and bought that thing or I’ve gone through a different channel and engaged with the ads.

Maybe he said, I don’t want this anymore. And, and that then becomes a challenge to an omni channel, right? So if you have so many channels running now. And you’re kind of leveraging the audiences across them. How do you also communicate that, okay, the user has bought it. We’re done. We don’t need to bug them anymore.

Or, or we switch on actually smartly to the next set of ads. All right. So somebody’s just purchased a car. Maybe now’s a good time to sell them a service plan. Something that’s you know, actually useful in that scenario. Any tricks there that, or, or how do you think about audience exploration? Do you, do you expire it pretty quickly?

Patrick Gilbert: I think it’s a great, it’s a great topic that. Honestly, I’m going to spend more time thinking about I think probably in the last year, we probably, as you expand to different channels, I think it’s natural to say like, Oh, what’s there like retargeting capabilities and you just like activate retargeting and you never think about it again and you measure it within that silo and then all of a sudden you turn around six months later and you say, wow, we spent a lot of money on, on retargeting ads across six different platforms.

It’s really hard for me to say what’s actually moving the needle here. Whereas earlier this week we did an analysis for a client where we actually saw that we were really hurting our profit margins by. Overinvesting in retargeting that these people are going to come back. It’s a media company, so they make ad revenue every time someone comes back to the site organically on.

If we actually pull back on our retargeting, our overall profit margins will go up, which will allow us to further invest in new traffic. So I think being able to think about okay, well, at what point can we say, This person’s going to come back to the site, whether or not we show them an ad. And how can we craft our audience lists around 10 like variables like that to be able to find those efficiencies throughout our different campaigns.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah. And I suppose that’s a bit of a pet peeve that most of us have with Google and the automation systems is that listen, who’s going to be the cheapest and easiest audience to get to convert. It’s the ones who’ve been there before. The ones we’ve already invested a lot of money in SEO to get people to our site.

And now ppc just wants to go and take the credit and do the easy thing so i’d say it sounds like google is moving a little bit more towards allowing advertisers to set Flags for is this a new customer? Are we prioritizing new customers? Do we want store visits? And at least letting that weigh a little bit on the machine learning decisions.

Michelle Morgan: I would say when it comes to the specific, like, challenge that you’re talking about, Fred, with trying to get rid of people who have converted already, or at least shifting them to new ads I’ve talked about this before. There are basically three ways that you need to try and mitigate that type of thing, and you need to do it across all of your channels.

Use all the scripts that you have available, so all the cookies and stuff that we keep talking about are going to go away. Okay. They’re not, they’re not gone yet. So use them for now. So use them as much as you possibly can. Build audiences that when somebody hits your thank you page, they’re automatically excluded from campaigns.

Set that up in all your channels and just have it be an auto exclusion because those are, those are automatic. As soon as somebody hits that page, they’ll be excluded from the campaigns. On platforms like LinkedIn and Facebook, they have engagement audiences where if you fill out a lead form, something like that, within the platform, you can exclude those users from.

Your campaigns moving forward. The downside of that is you can only exclude them from those channels because you can’t really exclude somebody who filled out a Facebook Legion form in an audience that way on Google. But that’s where your customer audience lists come from. So make sure that you keep your database clean.

We already talked about first party data, getting as much information as you can. It doesn’t necessarily mean that you just have to upload and target people. You can use that to upload and exclude people. And. To my knowledge, for the most part, every platform that is self serve that we have available pretty much has some sort of way that you can upload a list of email addresses, phone numbers, some of them have like state zip code, all this kind of stuff.

Between those three types of audiences, you’re going to get the most robust way to exclude people. So yes, it takes a decent amount of management, which goes back to the idea of why do people hire agencies? If you can give all this away, it’s like. They don’t want to do the work. They want somebody else to do the work so they can make money for them.

We’re good at this. They should be good at running their business. So just make sure that you’re using all of those different types of audiences to try and exclude people who are already in the funnel. Or like you said, send them to the next set of ads that’s going to be meaningful for them kind of after they’ve taken whatever step they’ve taken.

Fred, you’re on mute.

Frederick Vallaeys: My daughter was screaming in the background.

My buddy Joe is actually asking to see that Wall Street Journal article again. So Joe, screenshot it quickly. There

Joe Martinez: was a link at the bottom.

Michelle Morgan: Is that just because Facebook’s not

Patrick Gilbert: here right now? Yeah, there’s a link for it. It went around our internal Slack channel earlier today.

Frederick Vallaeys: There you go. FB. com, speak up for small. All right, so you can check that out later. Let’s talk about automation, right? So, Patrick, that’s kind of like the main topic of your book. And actually, do you have the book there on screen so we can show that? Yeah, okay.

Patrick Gilbert: Fred, I mailed you a copy, but it turns out trying to mail something in the middle of like the craziest supply chain FedEx moment of our lifetime is a little challenging.

So just send version two right away. Yeah. We need some edits already. As this conversation happens, we’re more and more like the policies are being updated, so we’re going to have to have you two come out soon.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, I’ve got the manuscript on my Kindle from back when I was still a PDF version. So thank you for sending that.

But I’d love to have one.

Patrick Gilbert: Yeah, I mean, hey Fred Valley’s shout out on the back here.

Frederick Vallaeys: So but yeah, so let’s talk about automation a bit more, right? And I don’t think we have to limit it here to just in the audience world or video. But like what’s everyone’s favorite automation and kind of given that automation certainly not going away. How do we work with it? And so one topic that’s kind of top of mind for me is with search query data being reduced from Google, like there’s fewer ways for us to actually manage keywords and match types really don’t work anymore because even exact matches now have close variants. So these are forced automations from Google where we didn’t really choose to use them.

We have little workarounds using scripts, so that brings us back to the old way. But at the same time, you could also think about, well, how do I shift instead of fighting this automation? How do I work together with it to achieve the best results? So I’d love to hear from everyone. What kind of automation are you all thinking about now and what are you excited about?

Patrick Gilbert: So I think one of the most controversial opinions that I think I have is that I’m totally okay. I mean, I’m not okay, but I’ve embraced The idea that we’re going to be losing more and more data, more and more search terms believe me, it sucks. I hate it. For many reasons, one of which it’s harder to like teach this to other people without having data to work with, but it’s a reality.

And I think it’s important to embrace that and then figure out what’s next. So one of the benefits to that, though, is that it’s forcing our team and others to be more creative about the levers that we can control. And I think that forces you to solve more global, important business problems. So when you’re just optimizing based on search terms, you’re very limited to a It’s one specific signal that’s being entered into the search auction, and none of us are have the bandwidth or the ability to comprehend the seven plus million signals that are factored into every single search auction.

So when we look at a single search search term and say that’s a bad search term, I want to add as a negative keyword. We’ll never understand the full story, especially when an automated system determined that it was actually worth it for us, even if it didn’t convert like that was something that was invested into learning, and I don’t think any of us can really comprehend what that really means, which I think is part of the reason why we’re losing access to that data, because if we have it, then we’ll probably use it in a way that’s going to hinder performance, but that’s kind of a separate topic.

But I think just overall, what I’m really excited about is the direction that a lot of these platforms are moving in that allows us to get more creative with translating our business goals into the automation. So I think a lot of people ask. One of the criticisms of the book was that I didn’t spend enough time talking about what automation isn’t good at.

And I think the real answer to that is automation is not good at interpreting what your goals are. If you don’t, if you’re not extremely direct about what that means. So, for example, if you have two products that are priced the same on your site, but have different profit margins, The machine’s never going to learn that unless you specifically give it that data or if there’s a certain type of product category that you know is more indicative of repeat purchase behavior and it’s someone that’s going to come back and add more lifetime value to your business.

then the machine’s not going to know that unless you tell it. So there’s new beta features being rolled out in Google about conversion rules. So I’m really excited to work with our clients to look at these large data sets, the first party data that Michelle was talking about earlier, figure out what sort of like data can we look at to say, okay, well, these sorts of buy, these sorts of buying habits the, you know, people that bought this type of product, Are more likely to do X Y Z.

Therefore, they’re more valuable to us. Let’s code that back into Google so we can train the system to go after more valuable customers for us. That’s a really, really exciting thing that moves the needle significantly. And I don’t think we would have ever gotten here if we were just playing around with search query data all day.

Like, I think we needed to be like, have this taken away from us. So that could force us to work on more important things.

Frederick Vallaeys: Well, it’s funny, right? Because as agencies, we manage ads, we manage bids, we manage keywords, but so many of us still work with customers that don’t even give us proper conversion tracking.

And I think we’re shifting into this world, like you’re saying, where. We have to manage conversions because that is the signal the best signal to tell the machine What is it we really care about and if it knows that well Then it can do a good job taking over on some of these other aspects from us And so rather than trying to fight, you know With queries and trying to figure out exactly which negatives we need to have and exactly which exact matches Right the machine can figure that out too if we properly tell it Like you said, what’s the different margins on products?

Do we have a profit maximization goal or a revenue maximization goal? Like these are two different things. And if you choose the wrong one, well, then your bids will be wrong for that goal. So I think managing conversions is just one of those things that we need to start making part of the the suite of things that we do.

And

Joe Martinez: that might be stealing some of Michelle’s thunder, and I’m not doing a plug, it just happened to be that the PayMeToPros channel released a video about ad bidding strategies in Google Ads, and that has become my favorite automation. There’s a section in that video where it talks about with so many of The automated bid strategies, you lose the ability to do some of the bid optimizations.

And for me, it’s like one, if you know that the quality of conversions is coming through and you can trust like a target CPA type bidding has become one. I’ve kind of relied on more and more. We found out that like, it’s okay. If we know that the quality of conversions are coming through, I don’t want to have to worry about every single location ad scheduling bid Democrat or bid adjustments.

Like, I don’t want to have to do that for hours. Every single week. It’s like, it’s a pain in the butt. So if you can still give me the quality and we can confirm that on the backend, good, then let me focus on what is fun about advertising and marketing. And that’s coming up with new channels to target new ad creatives to test.

To me, that’s the fun part. Not sifting through. Up 15. I

Frederick Vallaeys: think it’s kind of like an evolution, right? Sorry to interrupt, but it’s like in the old days, it was okay. Well, we advertise across the whole United States. So we have ads running in California and into New York, but we see that there’s a slight difference in conversion rates between New York and California.

So we set a bid adjustment for the geography for that conversion rate expectation, right? The machine handles that now. But what we can still do is we can say, well, actually, Okay. We’ve seen that lifetime value for customers from New York seems to be a bit higher than in California. That’s the thing we have never told the machine.

And that’s that next step that we can take. So it’s not like we’re stopping to think about how does location matter? You know, and it’s almost talking more about the audience now, right? So if someone’s in New York or if someone has these attributes as a, as a customer, What is that likely to tell us based on historical data, how much are they gonna spend with us?

How long are they gonna be a customer? How many products are they gonna return? Right? Because you could have an amazing shopping cart, checkout for a thousand dollars, and then, you know, I heard a stat that in Germany, 70% of all clothes that get bought online get returned. Right? If you’re not accounting for that wrong, you’re making completely wrong decisions.

Yeah. , how do you go to that next level?

Patrick Gilbert: Michelle? Joe, I’m curious what your approach is to conversion tracking. Like knowing that it’s like, none of this stuff will work if we’re not tracking the right data, but what is your attitude or approach when a client comes through, whether it’s a new client or existing client, where the tracking isn’t where you want it to be?

Michelle Morgan: I yell at them until they do it right.

Patrick Gilbert: I guess the other part of the question is like, yeah, so will you stop running ads?

Michelle Morgan: So that’s where we try and find, so the, by the way that you phrased it, I’m going to try and wiggle out of it, so I know I’m taking the easy route, but you say that they have it the way, they don’t have it set up the way that we want to.

That could mean that they either don’t have it set up or it’s just not ideal, so we usually try and figure out a way to kind of back into the metrics that we have by using other sources. So one of the clients that actually Joe and I work on together up until recently, for whatever reason, their freaking landing pages would not convert or would not record a conversion in the platform.

It just wouldn’t. But we utilized the data that was in their CRM to determine where those leads were coming from because we had some understanding of what was happening. It wasn’t, unfortunately, it’s still not tracking the right UTM parameters, but it’s clear that This Google ads account is what’s generating these leads.

And we can tell by the amount of leads coming through the different sins that we’re seeing in the tracking and how much we’re spending in the platform, that it’s clear that it’s coming from two out of the five campaigns that we have running. So we know that those are probably the things that are going to work and we try and kind of utilize our intuition to figure out what’s going on.

But it’s always something where We will always continue to help you spend your money in the way that is the smartest and we’re going to try and guide you to the right way, whether that’s me telling you every single time we get on the phone that I can’t do my job at the best of my ability. If you don’t give me this tracking information, sometimes people are fine with it because they know enough to know that when you started advertising, they started making a lot more money, so they don’t really care.

It’s not a priority for them, so it’s kind of an uphill battle, but it really does end up being. Lots of ongoing conversations. And how can we jump into mitigate? And like, even using something like Google Tag Manager. Like, if I can get you to just put Google Tag Manager on your site, I can probably help solve a lot of my own problems.

You just got to give me a little bit and then I’ll take it from there. And then I recently had a discussion with a client and I pretty much came up to him right when the call started. Like, look, I’m going to recommend that we’re going to triple the CPL that we see. Or cost per conversion within Google ads.

Joe Martinez: And that’s a weird thing to start off with, but we were using target CPA for a majority of the campaigns and the majority of the conversions were phone call conversions. Cause that’s still important to the client. I wanted to eventually turn them off because we were founding that the value was actually through form fills.

And now that Google gave us the call recording option, we were listening to dozens of these phone calls and they were all crap. So while in channel, it looks like cost per conversion. Oh God, it’s great. It’s great. We got it down to like, you know, 50 less than what we wanted to. They were all junk and it’s not providing any value.

So we looked and said, okay, we get the most closed leads and a huge lifetime value for this particular product. When they fill out this demo form, we’re going to adjust our route, switch our bid strategies up. Make sure and show that we have a consistent conversion history of this new conversion point that we want to optimize towards.

And then we can look at start switching back to our old bid strategies. But it really comes with what we were feeding the system and going through what you guys wanted to track. You know, it makes your bosses and your CEOs look good. Look at a little CPL is, but it’s not providing anything valuable to your company.

It’s not helping you guys grow. So we were recommending cutting that conversion completely, and that’s what we’ve done. And now they’re actually start seeing. More overall lifetime value numbers. It’s still early. So month over month. It doesn’t show much right now but it’s Providing what’s actually going to help the company grow which in turn Helps us because like kind of like what you said in your example, you boost that profit margin You boost their money gives us more opportunities to do other things down the road And the more data you have the more you know where to go and optimize, right?

Frederick Vallaeys: So when you said like the calls that came in they were all crap Well, they were bad. I wish I could share. Well, and I’d love to hear him, but there’s two reasons for that. So one of them could be it’s the wrong customers calling or two. It could be like you guys have done an amazing job as an agency to set up the right targeting and getting the right calls.

But then it’s the person at the front desk answering the phone. And basically trying to do a sales call, a person who’s never been trained to do this and just wasting the opportunity. And that happens too, right? So, you know, the agency, we may be just in charge of this one little piece, and that’s, by the way, did the reason that it’s sometimes so hard to install the tracking code.

It’s we can’t train people on how to pick up the phone and actually process put it in the right place. So things do fall apart at the edges of where we work. And then. Unfortunately, agencies do get blamed for that, right? That’s our fault. We gave you wrong traffic. Well, no, it’s actually not our fault.

It’s your fault for not doing the right thing with that traffic.

Joe Martinez: That happens a lot.

Frederick Vallaeys: Well, good. So we got a few minutes left. So any, anything that we haven’t talked about, that’s like. Just burning for any of you.

Michelle Morgan: I think the only thing I would say about automation is we always talk about the automation stuff where like it’s bidding strategies or, you know, having, having different scripts run and all that kind of stuff.

One of the things that I think everybody should pay attention to is. How can you automate things to help you make decisions faster? So automate your reporting where you can utilize something like supermetrics, have data pulled into a different sheet to where it can be formatted and just to have everything really easy to see.

Cause sometimes in these platforms, it’s not as easy to see what types of decisions we need to make. So, so Figure out some ways that you can utilize either a script or third party software or whatever it is, or even just macros in Excel to figure out a template of a report that you want. And then all you have to do is press a button, it runs, and now you’ve got the data in such a way that your brain can easily digest, make a decision and move on.

So spend more time automating your decision making. Data points as opposed to just actually automating the platform. I mean my god. I should hire you as a salesperson Yeah, change out the job title

Frederick Vallaeys: All right. On that note,

thanks everyone for watching. It’s been a fun year of doing PPC town halls and at least getting to do these things not in person, but still hanging out with the people we we love to work with. So thanks everyone for watching, for engaging, for putting in questions. Thank you, Michelle, Joe, and Patrick for being with us today and for doing the final episode of the year.

This has been a great one. We we wanted to come back strong in 2021. So the first episode we’re going to have, we’re bringing on the Godfather of PPC, the one person who is always on that top 20 list who we haven’t had yet. Who is that?

Joe Martinez: Brad.

Frederick Vallaeys: So Brad Geddes is going to be on, and Matt Van Wagner, he’s always fun to have on as well, and we’re still trying to get one additional person, but tune in for that. It’ll be the second Wednesday of January. Thanks again for watching. Stay in touch. If you want to talk to Joe or Michelle, You can find him at clicks marketing and Patrick works for adventure media.

So you can find him there and also check out his book on Amazon five star ratings. It’s available on Kindle to good holiday read. And like you said, I’m on the back cover. So I’ve read the manuscript and I enjoyed that book as well. So thanks. Happy holidays. I will see you next year.