Using Data to Activate PPC Strategies

Episode Description

PPC and data go together like wine and cheese, peanut butter and jelly, and Laurel and Hardy.

This episode features some of the most experienced names in search analytics and PPC data. Dive into what the numbers and information actually have to say, and get ideas for your next campaign.

This panel covers:

• Managing search terms now that Google has reduced how much data they share
• Setting up measurement so you can correctly track your PPC success
• Automation tools and tips to scale up best practices in agencies or for large accounts
• Which account structure is best for search and shopping campaigns ahead of Q4
• The biggest account management mistake to avoid

Episode Takeaways

Managing Search Terms with Reduced Data

• Explore ways to adapt to Google’s reduced search term visibility by focusing on strategic keyword management.
• Utilize broader match types and negative keywords to compensate for the loss of data and maintain control over search traffic.

Setting Up Effective PPC Measurement

• Develop robust tracking systems to accurately measure PPC performance, emphasizing conversion tracking and ROI analysis.
• Leverage Google’s machine learning capabilities to optimize bidding strategies based on conversion probabilities and expected revenue.

Utilizing Automation in PPC Management

• Implement automation tools to streamline campaign management and optimize ad performance through algorithms.
• Use automated rules and scripts to manage bids, test ad copy, and adjust budgets based on performance data.

Optimal Account Structure for Search and Shopping Campaigns

• Structure campaigns by intent and expected conversion rate to allow for more precise targeting and budget allocation.
• For shopping campaigns, consider using Google’s Smart Shopping campaigns to automate ad placement and bidding.

Common PPC Account Management Mistakes

• Avoid over-segmentation of campaigns which can lead to management complexity and dilute data significance.
• Be cautious of relying too heavily on automation without understanding the underlying metrics and business impact.4

Episode Transcript

Frederick Vallaeys: Hello and welcome to PPC Town Hall. My name is Fred Vallaeys. I’m your host and I’m also the co founder and CEO of Optmyzr. So we have two guests who’ve been with us before and we’ve been talking between ourselves for the last 15 minutes and it’s already gotten contentious and now we’ve gone into very interesting places.

So this should be a good show. We’re happy you’re here. Use the chat box to tell us where you’re calling in from today or where you’re watching us from if you’re watching live Our guests will be happy to take questions and we’re gonna try to be fairly, you know Specific and tactical and share some specific advice that you can use for your PPC accounts.

So it’s gonna be a great time To ask questions the topic we have lined up is sort of around data, who owns the data, what happens when search terms reports from Google get reduced and with all of this data, how do you feed it into automation and how do you produce the best possible PPC results?

So to talk about that, I have Kirk Williams and Aaron Levy. I’m going to roll the pre roll now and then we’ll get started. All

right. Hello to my guests Kirk and Aaron. Welcome back, Kirk. How are you doing?

Kirk Williams: Good. Good. Thank you. I feel very inspired after that music. I know we’re going to accomplish great things

Frederick Vallaeys: and I’m sorry. We we asked John Williams to do the score, but he wouldn’t. Is that who did Star Wars? Okay.

Kirk Williams: So did every movie ever him or that other guy that does like Pirates of the Caribbean and stuff like that.

I just blanked on him.

Frederick Vallaeys: He’s good

Kirk Williams: too.

Frederick Vallaeys: Okay. So most, some of our viewers who did the score for Pirates of the Caribbean? Very important. PPC crushing. I actually have no, that’s right. Hans Zimmer. Okay, so we got people watching all the way from Portugal, Minneapolis, Miami. So keep telling us where you’re watching from.

Aaron, where are you joining us from today?

Aaron Levy: I’m joining you from sunny South Philadelphia. And thankfully, my neighbors aren’t yelling at their children yet. So I will be nice and quiet. Usually starts around, usually starts around 1230. So we’ll see how the afternoon

Frederick Vallaeys: goes. Well, my children have just left the house, but sometime we’ll be coming back and last town hall we did, the whole thing devolved into complete chaos at some point when my children were fighting, running into my office.

Hey, we

Aaron Levy: have a rule on my team that parents aren’t allowed to apologize for child related interruptions. We just have to deal with them. They’re there.

Frederick Vallaeys: Exactly. Yeah. And some, some people nowadays play bingo during sessions like these. You actually score a point if the kids walk in the room or somebody talks when they’re muted.

Kirk Williams: Yes.

Frederick Vallaeys: So Hey, the topic at hand today. I guess let’s start with the exciting one, right. Or the not so exciting one, but. Google took away search terms. And this is now about two week old news, but we haven’t really covered it very extensively on town hall. And Kirk, I know you’ve written quite a few things about it.

So you want to kick us off and maybe tell us what changed.

Kirk Williams: Yeah, I can start. So basically Google rolled out a change where they said we’re no longer going to be showing search terms in to advertisers. After some investigation, we discovered that is through basically Anything API you know, tools, that, that sort of thing.

And then as well as what you can see in the user interface. And basically, you know, we’re not going to show search terms anymore that are over a certain, you know traffic level. Okay. Well, what is that? Well, it’s. Significant. And that was, that was the word used the word that has become well known in the PPC land since then.

And so, you know, a lot of then what has been, you know, written about that has been a lot of people have looked into that and said, Hey, you know, we’re seeing a drop in probably 28%. That seems to be about average. That’s, that’s a lot of what we’re seeing. A lot of others have reported that as well.

And basically you, in your search term report, now you no longer have access to you. Close to 30 percent of the data that of the terms that are accruing costs. And so then kind of has been the discussion of what does that mean? Is that, is that okay? And, and, and all of the above. So that’s the more factual response, not so much the opinionated one.

Frederick Vallaeys: So start with the factual. So Aaron, is that a full factual representation of what happened?

Aaron Levy: It is I’ll actually I’ll talk about myself for a minute because I want to. We actually haven’t put out a piece about it yet. And a lot of our clients have asked like, Oh my goodness, is like the world ending like is 50 percent of our data gone.

The thing to remember about search term reports is a lot of this normalizes over time. A lot of philosophies about this. My theory is that it’s all one impression, one click searches, and I know a lot of people are still seeing them, but I’m guessing that there’s another time in your account that it happened.

So it’s, it’s accurate. Kirk’s obviously right. And there’s a lot of, I’ll say controversy heat. Most advertisers don’t like it. Certainly along with them, but we’ll see what happens.

Kirk Williams: And it is important to note that there has been maybe you, maybe, you know, either of you remember at some point in the past, Google has not shown Like Google does not show all search term data as it is.

It was like 2017, wasn’t it? Something like that. So there is some some level of that appearing as well. Although I think at this point, probably the difference being there’s not usually up to, you know, 30 percent or so more than some accounts have lost.

Frederick Vallaeys: Interesting to me because I I mean, I kind of, I was actually on vacation when this happened.

Right. So I’m not going to worry about it too much, but I was like, Hey, maybe someone should write a script. So I wrote a script and here’s the output that I found in one of my accounts. And you can see that, no, you can’t see the chart on the screen. So I’m going to pop it up here. But what this chart shows is the percent of unknown search terms.

And this, these dates are actually before the. Change that Google made and the change was announced on September 2nd And most of the change that you guys probably saw was also around September 2nd Actually, if you looked at it on a pure impression basis We had even before this change 20 20 ish percent of impressions that we never knew What they were right and I think that’s to your point Aaron that a lot of these impressions Were impressions, but they never got clicked.

So there was never any cost. So They might have been one time impressions one time searches. So google has already been hiding those from us. So in that regard Yes Since 2017 or whenever Google has been hiding this because we can’t really do anything with it. My understanding was that a lot of that likely also, or at least in my own analysis came from search partners.

Aaron Levy: Some of these other vendors that just aren’t passing all the data back and forth or don’t have the capability for it. So there’s usually a, there was usually a rhyme or reason as to why that stuff was hidden. And I’m sure there’s a rhyme or reason for the new changes as well. But as Kirk demonstrated in his post that us premier partners, a little frustrated that it’s, it’s extra.

Cloudy even by Google standards. So we’re still trying to unpack exactly what it is and what that criteria is. Yeah, exactly. And so, I mean, when I was working at Google, I think that’s when actually the first iteration of this happened. And we said, we’re not going to show searches that have personal data.

Frederick Vallaeys: And there’s a bunch of advertisers out there who literally buy every single name that they can think of that they pull from whatever records they have. And then, you know, it’s like people search. Right. And so those were the types of things Google said at that time they wanted to hide because nobody needs to know you know, that somebody typed in Fred Vallis and then my social security number.

You don’t want to get that in the wrong hands.

Aaron Levy: You might want to know that.

Frederick Vallaeys: Why do they even have that? Right? But the point is, like, if if I knew gray, if it was Aaron Levy and then your social security and pin code, I’m like, sweet, let me go to the bank and there’s not much there. Don’t worry about it.

Sorry, COVID been rough on you. Here, but let me share my screen again. And Kirk, if you have any like stats you want to show, I can pull up your articles or you can share it yourself. But here. Is that same analysis now in the script that I posted on search engine land? And here you can see it’s a little small, make it bigger.

So, but on September 2nd, that is the date of the change. So that’s right around here. And this is now, I think on a a cost basis or a clicks basis. And it shows that from one day we go from 20 percent of search terms being hidden to be to 40, 50%. Right. So in the case of this one particular account, it was actually double the amount of data that became hidden overnight.

And this is actually data now that has costs associated with it. Right. And that’s the type of stuff that I think we’re pissed about because that’s what we are spending money on and therefore we might want to know what this was and be able to make negative keywords if we don’t think it was super relevant.

Aaron Levy: Well, what I’m really curious about, so I’ve, I’ve toot my own horn a little bit. I predicted this two years ago. Visual and I’m curious on both of y’all, but, but search in my mind is looking much more and more like a DSP, like it’s a programmatic land now. So if you think back to the, not even really the early days, frankly, still yesterday, a lot of programmatic data was hidden or you would have to pay more to not have run of network or you’d have to pay more for full visibility.

So. Not that I think that Google will have attacks of some sort based on their privacy assessment, but it’s starting to look sort of similar to how that stuff looked in the early 2000s.

Kirk Williams: And I think, so I think that’s where it gets into some of those, even before we start recording some of those bigger conversations, right?

That also will not be decided on this podcast or any podcast probably, but at some point I assume in some sort of court of land. You know, I see, I see a few things working into this, like there’s the pragmatist and the idealist in me fight over things like this because the pragmatist looks at this and in a lot of ways and like, this is kind of what it is we’re playing in Google space.

It is what it is, you know, the idealist though starts to look at some of this stuff and say. Hey, there are things about this that I’m trying to kind of figure out myself in terms of Google search share size, which really the word monopoly is thrown out more and more and potentially not in terms of you know, falsely I’m not a lawyer, by the way, none of us are.

Now you don’t get to sue us about anything. I say that jokingly. And so you kind of have that idea of, okay, like, of course we as PPC marketers are going to have to figure this out. We do. That’s part of what we do. We’ll figure it out. So in some ways there’s some level of it sucks. We’ll figure it out.

That’s kind of what we do. It’s starting to go more the way like Aaron is saying there’s, there’s other advertising methods that are like that. Where there’s someone on, on LinkedIn even shared it with me in terms of Hey, it’s, it’s kind of even similar to a, let’s say a TV ad buying space where it’s bundle packages and you’re buying like the product.

Prime stuff, let’s say the prime keywords. And there’s just kind of this like kind of tax of not super prime keywords that you might now have to buy as well. And that’s all hidden. And that’s just part of, it’s part of the Google tax. Right. But then I think then that opens up and this is what I’ve been trying to write about, not necessarily in this, Hey, let’s, you know, let’s, let’s pitchforks and lanterns, but in this, I see two main conversations coming out of this that I think are really starting to grow first being.

Access to data rights. So I don’t mean data rights. Cause I, I truly don’t think advertisers own the data. I think the platform and users, and that’s what they’re going to figure out. But in some ways an advertiser is, and that’s some of the question is what is an advertiser paying for? Is it just strictly access to a platform or is it access to a platform and the according data that allows you to advertise well, right?

And then you have kind of that. So, so you have, you have that and then you have, I think, then even more of a philosophical discussion, which is more of the Google and advertiser thing, which is, which gets into the, the, the constantly changing landscape from what was originally agreed upon. And I do know there’s.

Agreements that happen never endingly that we check the box on. So, you know, Google can cover their butts, right? So that, that happens, but there is some level of Google has created a system in which we’re reliant on them and they pretty much have most all market share. That sucks. I wish Microsoft had more super interesting article in the New York times about the double click purchase and how that totally could have changed everything just this week.

But they’ve created this, they kind of own all of that and now they keep moving the goalposts. They keep saying, you advertiser, this is, this is, you know, basically it’s all about search. That’s what we’re all starting this on. This is a paid search. It’s all about the keyword communication intent. And now, as you said, Aaron, it’s starting to kind of change.

And I think a lot of the advertiser frustration is not because solely we can’t all figure it out, but I think it’s also leaning into the, the, the deal keeps getting worse. If I can quote Star Wars and Han Solo, right? It, the deal keeps getting worse. And at some point with Google, as big as they are, what else are we going to do?

And I think there’s a lot of stuff around all of that stuff that, that to me make turns it into a bigger thing than just simply Well, this sucks. Let’s figure it out. So there are my articles in a nutshell, I guess what I’ve been writing about lately.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah. You’ve been writing a lot about this this whole topic.

And then I hadn’t seen the New York times article yet, but that’s an interesting one. So it’s,

Kirk Williams: it’s a fascinating article because basically, and again, this is sometimes the, he says, she said, but basically the original FTC people. Who allowed the, the double click acquisition, some of them have said, if I know it, and that’s part of, I think this too, is like, we make these decisions, especially legally and on a government level that you don’t even fully understand the ramifications.

And so that’s why some of this stuff has to change in that. And they basically said, man, if I knew the full ramifications of what would have happened. Yeah. I might not have voted to allow that acquisition. That’s all we’re going to have.

Frederick Vallaeys: And governments, they tend to not be specialists in all the areas that they have to cover.

And I think even looking at some of the decisions they’re making around news providers showing up in searches and those types of taxes that you see in Europe even stuff like GDPR and privacy, like privacy. I mean, it’s, It’s the right principle, but at the end of the day, it’s like, it’s the Google’s and the Facebook’s of the worlds who have the lawyers and the bandwidth to deal with this, like for the three of us, you know, different sized companies, but not exactly at the scale of Google, right.

These are significant impacts. If we have to like start working. I mean, I know for Optmyzrs specifically, just every time. So GDPR, there’s a relationship with the United States through privacy shield that was invalidated by Europe. And guess what? From one day to the next, I have to go back and spend a bunch of time that I would rather have spent building cool PPC products, figuring out, you know, all that legal stuff.

And Google doesn’t care. I mean, drop in the bucket for them. It’s I mean, it’s a complicated. Conversation, especially as you start talking about GDPR versus C. C. P. A. Versus whatever every other state is going to be talking about and about the M. word, the monopoly discussion, the goal and the way that the consumer protection agencies work in Europe is different from how they work in U.

Aaron Levy: S. I don’t. Fully remember the exact details, but it’s something like us has to prove abusive monopoly and Europe has to prove potential of abuse. So if you want to, I mean, a lot of my role is to look like three or four years out. So my team is protected and knows what to do. Our clients are protected. So some of that stuff, like if you look at what GDPR happens, like That’s likely a better place to look than like, Oh, CCPA is going to go everywhere else.

Kirk Williams: I think it’s the i’ve heard someone explain. I think it’s the the eu looks at it in terms of a fair market, right? So what is what is fair for competitors and all that and the u. s tends to look at it like Has a law been broken? Someone explain that to me, it might have even been Brad Geddes and I, and it kind of clicked.

I was like, Oh, that makes a lot of sense why you see a lot of different rulings sometimes between the two.

Frederick Vallaeys: And then it’s especially complicated because we work across different continents. And then there’s the other issue that when it comes to privacy data, you know, data. Wants to be free fundamentally.

Right. So it’s very hard to keep a piece of data for moving between continents. Even if you, I mean, you don’t consciously know where the data goes. Like I might be buying a thing from someone in New Jersey, but God knows for some reason, maybe that traffic is routed at some point through Europe. Well, okay.

Whose law applies at this point? It’s, it’s very complicated. And unless you become China and shut it all down and that’s the only way you control it. Hey, so there’s a question from Ashwin. Ashwin’s actually a producer on our show, but I’m glad he’s asking this. So Martin Rutgerding was talking about some of the other data obfuscation that’s happening and specifically physical locations have been removed.

So this is his article and we can put up the link there in just a second. But but yeah, he’s basically talking about, is this another. Way for Google to get us to pay their taxes. And this is specifically because the premise of the article is that Google is being forced to pay taxes. The taxes are based on where the physical users are doing searches from.

And the only way that the governments can really force Google to give that data or that they have the data right now is by looking at the reports that all of us advertisers have. Right, the physical location report. So they’ve hidden that. So is that in a way to make it harder for people to figure out what taxes to to charge?

Have you guys heard anything about that?

Aaron Levy: Yeah, I read his article. And we we have a number of advertisers that were affected by it, and it’s

Try to think of how to frame this. I don’t When a new tax happens, there’s no secret. Google doesn’t like taxes very much. And they do their best to not pay them. But when something like this happens, advertisers or us or customers or whatever will pay for it in some format or another, I don’t like that they’re being as explicit about it, but I also appreciate that they’re being a little bit more explicit about it.

Now the way that they rolled it out, for those of you who don’t know, was a little silly. They, Send a notification only to the billing contact, which for the vast majority of our clients is very often like someone in accounts payable that like, doesn’t know what Google is and they just look at numbers. So the concept of them passing the tax on to advertisers, in my opinion, what happened some way or another, and I almost applaud the fact that they’re being transparent, that like, we’re just going to shave this off the top. But what I don’t, What I think that they’ve struggled with, and frankly, the search term report is another one, is how to communicate these changes without causing a stir, without causing a million advertisers to go, Oh my God, and get their pitchforks and lanterns.

And I think that’s an area that could use some refinement. So let’s put

Frederick Vallaeys: on our our predictor hats. You’d seen with the physical location reports going away and the search terms reports being limited. What do you think is, Can happen in the next year. I mean, if this continue and so now I’ll tell you what I’m thinking, right?

So there’s an uproar from advertisers. They’re like, wow, you know, I specifically bought a keyword or that’s the keyword I told you I want to advertise on. And now you’re hiding the fact that you’re showing my ads for these. other variations. So I’m pissed and that’s like what you’re doing is illegal.

Okay. So then what does Google do next? They say, well, listen, we don’t really want you to buy keywords. We really want you to buy sales leads, right? So that’s why Google’s moving to cost per acquisition return on ad spend type systems. And so by us complaining more vocally, are we potentially putting ourselves in a position where Google will just say, well, then, you know, if you complain so much about buying a keyword.

Stop buying a keyword. There’s no more keywords. We’ll just figure it out for you. And we’ll do smart campaigns across the board where you just tell us what your conversion is, how much you’re willing to pay for that. You’re a landing page. And that’s kind of the end of it.

Aaron Levy: I mean, my, my, my tinfoil hat says no more landing pages.

So I was having this, I was having this conversation with my manager the other day, and I actually owe a post to search engine land too. My philosophy, and this is very big picture, but I believe that. Sort of similar to how Facebook acts as the internet for many people. Google’s trying to do the same thing.

Like there’s no more internet, no more websites, no more, whatever. It just all goes through these individual platforms. And I don’t think that will happen for anybody. Like the internet’s not going to suddenly die. So like don’t put that big of a tempo, but the data will get walled off a little bit more.

Frederick Vallaeys: Right. So you’re talking about the walled garden principle. And so like more Facebook type environments

Aaron Levy: and not even from a data flow from a, a pure. I guess workflow operations. So if any of you, if either of you Kirk, I’m assuming you don’t, but if you work with any service clients local services ads, LSAs are like 70 percent of volume right now, to be frank, it generally performs as good, if not better than our old searches.

And I think that that’s probably closer to the future.

Kirk Williams: Yeah. I mean, if, if what you’re asking Fred is, is it becoming more and more difficult for, Advertisers to communicate to Google in a way that gets what we would like to see happen rather than what Google would happen, then yes. You, you ended with that question of, you know, are we, are we in danger of communicating to Google and then them saying, okay, well, on Kubernetes, well, sure.

Also like, what else do we do at this point? And that, that kind of gets into, I think my, you know, I wrote, I wrote an article on LinkedIn about it. Which was basically in some ways, you know, I, I think Aaron’s exactly right. Which is, is really funny because that, that really is, you know, Google basically pursuing a strategy that we all see that, that pushes to kind of.

Monopolize if you will word chosen specifically you know, any, any sort of user interest and access and stuff is kind of a humorous, almost ironic look at. What their purpose is and then on the flip side, they’ll sit in front of a Congressional board and say absolutely not, you know, we’re not we’re not even close to monopoly, right?

And and so I think that what I see as kind of part of the issue here is is a little bit two fold And this is a bigger philosophical. I don’t know what to do about it the the issue I see is Is is in one way google pushing further and further into these I see this as them You In a, in a harmful way to the system of, of leaving the core of what paid search is.

So as they continue to try to wall off data and push to more of an audience focused programmatic type thing, they’re starting to behave less and less like. In my opinion, a paid search, search advertising thing, which is how they. Which is how they started, which is why we use them, which is the value.

The fact that an SMB small little plumber can go in and say, gosh, I just, I just want to spend on just these keywords. Cause that actually is exactly what’s going on. There is a value to that. And that’s not to say there’s not a value in additional audience metrics that can be added in and helped.

Right. But, but I guess I, I don’t see just a both and thing. I see kind of a leaving the core. So to answer your question, I, I, I absolutely expect at some point in the future, keywords to be removed. You see that, you know, smart shopping, I think is the future of shopping. I think some sort of automation I’ve had people get upset when I say things like this, cause they’re like, whoa, whoa, stop, stop giving Google ideas.

And you’re kind of like, man, I think this has been decided at Google for years. They’re just making, they’re just making those steps. Right. So I think that that’s kind of what’s happening. And a lot of that is because that, you know, they get to control that. And, and, and I think that I guess I have a concern philosophically in that regard, because I do see that in some ways as, as leaving the core of who they are.

Right. And that’s not just as a paid search marketer being frustrated that it’s changing. That is. That is why we all got into it is an individual person in a timely manner, literally telling you I’m interested in this right now has, has phenomenal value. So I, that, that, I think that’s part of it.

Aaron Levy: You beg an interesting question though. At no point in our, our careers in Google, have we been able to target an individual? So we have this assumption and where we get to the keyword conversation, in my opinion, they’re gone. Like they’re already gone. Well look, we I’ll use the word, even though like it’s kind of a bad word.

Yeah, right. Like at this point, like showing for an individual keyword and isolating it is a hack. It’s hacking the system to make it do what you want, but it’s not how the system was designed. The system was designed the other way where we create a halo effect around people and there’s all these inputs to try and figure out the right person, right time, right place, right message, whatever.

But, and this is going back a little bit to my philosophical view on these, these Search terms hiding, like, no, I don’t like it. I don’t, I would like more data. I would like to look at everything, but also fundamentally, we were talking about this before. I can’t tell how many 23 year old search my ad in Philadelphia.

And I know that 23 year olds in Philadelphia are terrible, but I was never mad about that before. So it’s almost the concept of something. It’s like the, it’s better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. It’s a little bit of that and a different shape. Like it’s something that we had that we loved that is gone, even though there’s other stuff that we probably should have been equally as mad at that we never had.

Frederick Vallaeys: Yeah, exactly. And to what degree are we trying to protect our jobs as one thing, right? I mean, and then, then. The notion that 50 percent of advertising has always been wasted. And so to your point, the 23 year olds in Philadelphia might not be your target audience, but that you’ve kind of taken along with it because there’s never been a control on it. So I think, and then Kirk, to your point about, we bought into one thing and now it’s become another thing. It’s like, think about the car companies, right? So Ford started with a steering wheel, but now Ford is like, wow, we’d rather actually have a self driving car that doesn’t have a steering wheel because the point of a car, Was never the joy of driving.

I mean, maybe that was like a side effect of it. The, the, the, the, the joy of managing keywords. Right. But the actual point was to get from point A to point B. And now we can get you from point A to point B in a self driving car without a steering wheel. So and, and people who enjoy driving, yeah, we’re frustrated as hell that the engines are being cut down by emission standards and that the steering wheel is going away and that it’s becoming a completely functional thing And I think where the rub is really is that now that we’re in that soft driving car, going from point A to point B, the next thing, the windows are completely tinted, we can’t look outside.

And so now we have to fully trust Google is actually taking us to shortest route. And that’s where I think a lot of us are a little bit pissed.

Kirk Williams: And one of the differences even, cause I like that analogy, but one of the reasons why the analogy in some ways is apples to oranges is because, Heck, if that’s what Ford decides, we can go hit up Chevy, Toyota, Honda, you know, Kia is a thing again, all of a sudden, right.

And that is pretty significantly different in terms of the paid search landscape.

Aaron Levy: Well, if we, if we take a big step back, I’ll give you my favorite Car fun facts. And then then we can move on. You know that the electric car and the combustion engine were basically invented at the same time. It’s a branding problem.

Like electric cars were branded as like, Oh, no, wasteful, bad, whatever. And comes up combustion is the way of the future. And here we are, we’re really going the other way. And so to an interesting degree, Google’s kind of the same way where it’s, it’s like, it’s exactly the person at the right time asking you a specific question.

But again, you don’t know who the person is. Yeah. And to your point earlier, Aaron, and I think it was a good one, but one of the things I’d noticed, you know, you had noted, well, Harry, there are certain data points that we, that are, we didn’t know that we didn’t have access to. So I think some of the difference with this though, is there’s a difference between data that was unknowable.

Kirk Williams: And data that is knowable and now purposely removed. And I guess that’s where I would make a distinction and not, not even in a way where I’m like, Hey, I’m ready to argue and totally disagree. But I’m just, I’m just trying to kind of think through all this in terms of all the ramifications. Yeah, that’s a good point.

Frederick Vallaeys: And so what do we do, right? I mean, so we’re saying at this point, maybe we’re down to half of the search terms that we have both of your, Forecasting the demise of the keyword horizon on that, by the way, what’s your timeline on that? Let’s let’s take some statements here and there.

Aaron Levy: Can you ask the question again?

I missed a word.

Frederick Vallaeys: Oh, yeah. So how long until keywords are gone?

Aaron Levy: Not before 2022. November of 2019 whenever the close, whenever the, whenever closed variants, so look, I mean, whenever they haven’t been rebranded yet, but effectively they are gone. So whenever closed variants became the default at that point, we were effectively buying categories.

So

Frederick Vallaeys: you’re saying, so it’s the, we have the illusion of keywords that we

Aaron Levy: do. We honestly do. And that’s, that’s a comment that I’ve made to a lot of people in a lot of areas and they’re like, they’re taking our control away. Like, no, you never had it. They just made you think you did. And it’s, I use the metaphor a lot.

Like we’ve always, it’s a Roomba versus a vacuum cleaner. And right now Google is saying, here’s a Roomba and we’re trying to push it around the room. So. Yeah, it works, but that’s not what it’s built for.

Kirk Williams: Yeah. The best part of Roombas and this doesn’t necessarily match, but I don’t know if you have one, but we got one and we have to clean up so much stuff and we, we have to like literally lay roadblocks and stuff so that it only does what we, anyways, it’s kind of fun

Frederick Vallaeys: before the Roomba.

And then when the Roomba is running, like I get so passed by it, I’m just standing there watching.

Aaron Levy: That’s true.

Frederick Vallaeys: Like what kind did I just say?

Aaron Levy: The metaphor works in a couple of different ways. Yeah, it does.

Frederick Vallaeys: And then, you know, the job can go really badly if you have cats or pets who leave a mess overnight.

The Roomba doesn’t recognize that there’s some droppings on the carpet. And it’ll basically just spread it throughout the house. Oh. Hey, we’re talking about automation. Is automation the answer to being pulled away?

Aaron Levy: I mean, like I can give my philosophies and we’ll stick with the room of metaphor, honestly, because it works.

So. When you think about a Roomba or bare bones basic automation, and frankly, this is kind of how Google’s works too, is that it assumes everything is good until it bumps into something bad and it will bumps into something bad. It doesn’t adjust slightly. It turns around and goes the other way. So when we’re thinking about, about automation, like there’s no secret, like.

You have a calculator? Great, that’s automated. You use Excel? Automation. Cool. Like, do you want to do all these things? Do you want to type a formula 10, 000 times and you want to drag it down? So, a lot of our philosophies have been building runways for automation. So, like, alright, we know it’s going to make mistakes.

We know it’s going to have good days and bad days. So, how do we make sure that it’s runways appropriate to give it enough room to succeed and do what it’s good at without letting it’s Learning process

Frederick Vallaeys: so what do these runways look like? Are these alerts and monitoring systems? Is this like more of a time frame that you build out to say this is how much time we need to allow it to learn?

Aaron Levy: It’s a little bit more of how we structure things. So we’re working on structuring things by intent forecast that outcome expected conversion rate. So if you think about Mhm. We’ll talk specifically about Google’s automation and smart bidding. Now it largely optimizes based on expected revenue and expected conversion rate.

So it has to learn and figure out what those are. So if we can put things in like runways where we have, okay, this group of people, keywords, whatever sites has an expected conversion rate of five, and this group has an expected conversion rate of one. Okay, we’ll put them in different box buckets because they’re optimizing and operating differently.

So that lets us do sort of the budget runways that we historically would have done with keywords that you’ll put all of your exact match keywords and max out the budget before going to broad. Instead, we’ll do it in a different way where we’re putting our highest priority and top value customers, keywords, people, audience, whatever.

In bucket a and like, we’ll max that out. And then our research. We’re not really sure what’s gonna happen for other campaigns in a different bucket. So then the automation has a runway within a target and within a marketing goal. So it doesn’t have to guess. We want to take it’s guessing away and let if we can control the inputs and make sure that the machine is optimizing based on what we know is right as a business agency, customer, whatever.

It minimizes the sort of downside and lets it do what it’s good at.

Frederick Vallaeys: So a couple of really important points that I’m hearing. You have a new sort of campaign structure that’s more modern and more apt to automation.

Aaron Levy: And it’s the polar opposite of what I’ve pitched at conferences until like 2000, like last year.

So everything that I said before that wrong, old, Aaron, stupid.

Frederick Vallaeys: Well, old Aaron was smart at the time for his time. Yeah. No, and that’s the thing. I mean, Google changes things all the time. So we have to adapt as well. Right? Right. So better campaign structure. And then it sounds like bringing business data into the equation is sort of another thing.

So you’re, it sounds like you’re not purely measuring cost per acquisition ROAS. It’s more like business outcomes. And these are levers that you use.

Aaron Levy: Correct. Which is anyone who works on, on accounts of scale know that Google’s doing its best to get us to give them data. They are offering lifetime value modeling.

They’re opening their economists to say like, Hey, if you give us all of our stuff, we’ll tell you who your best customers are. So we talk about data democracy. Google’s recognized that data is currency now, so they’re trying to get more of it the same way that an investment. like, Hey, if you give us more money, we can do better.

Google says, if you give us more data, we can do better. And they’re correct. It’s it’s essentially, but it’s a game of inputs and outputs because as we all know, any platform, Google, Facebook, Bing, Apple, whatever, we’ll all take credit for everything they possibly can. So it’s on you as a business to figure out what, what the impact is and the halo effect and, and how you pass things back and forth.

And there’s also the concept of what if data is wrong? So there’s putting those fail safes in, whether it’s using a tool like Optmyzr for alerts when something falls off, or if it’s, you know, optimizing based on a really top of funnel conversion, like leads or emails, and then monitoring the rate as they go through the sales process since more data is better. But just figuring out how you use all that data, depending on how much is available has become the name of the game rather than we need to make sure the right keyword is in the ad and we have called action.

Frederick Vallaeys: And that’s interesting. So like in the old days, the old Aaron probably spent a lot of time pushing buttons and like.

Tweaking things.

Aaron Levy: I pushed a lot of

Frederick Vallaeys: buttons. Yeah. The new Aaron plays more golf.

Aaron Levy: I play golf at the desk.

Frederick Vallaeys: Nice. What do you run? Have you played in the last couple of months?

Aaron Levy: I think my counts up to like 65 since courses open back up here. My farmer, you can’t actually, you kind of can’t see it right now.

My farmer’s tan is laser cut. It’s amazing.

Frederick Vallaeys: So So new Aaron plays more golf, but also thinks about strategy more. So, and that’s kind of maybe a question for Kirk as well, but like, how is your time as an agency shifted between executing on the work versus now maybe strategizing and getting the right data, the right measurement, connecting your CRM systems, and then feeding it into Google and letting them sort of handle that.

To details like smart betting.

Kirk Williams: Yeah. I mean, it’s definitely shifted. I don’t know if I have a great percentage, you know, base marker to say, but for sure we are trying to purposely have more of those strategic type conversations. And arguably we always should have to, and tried to, but, but for sure, even as Aaron, Aaron said, I agree with that, you know, definitely the, the, the strategy side of things is crucial.

I mean, looking at the Roomba type. Metaphor again, right? The, the currently right now, as it stands, there still is a, the human kind of determining the bounds, determining the objectives, this is the room we’re going to be putting the Roomba in today. Here are the boundaries. So it cannot. Do what it shouldn’t.

You know, another thing I think is good to think through on the automation side of things, too, is, you know, Aaron was joking about well, dumb Aaron back in the day, and I know you’re just joking, but to me, there’s a level of we also need to be careful not to just. We PPCers love to just always be looking into the future and thinking like, what can automation do?

Things like that. And by the way, I think that’s even some of the danger that Google falls into the trap for Google falls into at times, which is, Hey, it’s, it’s very possible that at some point in five years, there’s going to be X, Y, Z, and that will change how we’re utilizing automation more than that, but also currently what exactly does this look right now, like right now.

Right. And so for us, that might mean we’re in a little bit of a messy spot. Let’s just say with smart bidding. Where some, I mean, I haven’t, so I, we’ve been using way more smart bidding than we did. There are times with some more advanced standard chopping strategies that I have completely pulled back, reverted, all manual, no enhanced CBC.

It’s preventing query bleed over and getting messy. And it’s just, we have kind of our filters that we run and we just, We actually have even reverted back to that a little bit right now. Not because I think that automation is horrible. Smart Ben can never get there, blah, blah, blah. But I’m trying to look at things right now as it is and say, this is, you know, this is how it is.

These are the things I need to do as the human, knowing that probably that’s going to change at some point, a designer or an engineer is going to write code that Arumba will be able to. Acknowledge that there’s cat poop on the ground and not run over it. We’re not there yet, you know, so you need to act accordingly.

Frederick Vallaeys: You need that control to be able to formulate future strategies. So if a human in 200 years walks into a room that’s full of cat poop, they might not know that was cat poop because they’ve never, you know,

I mean, is that maybe the point here that we have to understand where we came from and how we would have avoided these things in the first place or just deal with what it is the nature of automation right now? Having a really good idea of where it’s at and not necessarily not, not be afraid to utilize it, not run to it too quickly, have a really good like as, as Aaron has, I think, done an awesome job of how they look at, you know, building things around that knowing that in some ways, The mark, everything keeps changing and we’ll probably be changing things up a bit, changing tactics, strategies, how we look at it, how we interact with automation and like literally that’s okay.

Kirk Williams: That’s part of there’s, there’s a value of the human right there is that there needs to be someone just kind of figuring out how we utilize automation continually as it changes.

Frederick Vallaeys: How we utilize it and how we build it too. I mean, it’s like, I’m worried that the newer generation is going to come along and be like, well, these automations are the things we have.

Therefore, we must fit what we do within the scope and the limits of that, as opposed to be like, hey, that automation was by someone for some reason, like, We should control it. We should rebuild it if it’s not doing what we need it to do.

Aaron Levy: It’s an interesting comment. And I look, I look a lot at my own career arc and how I got started.

And I sort of did, I went backwards. Like I had a, co op in college where I was in house. So I learned how to be a marketer first, and then I went multi channel and then I settled in on search. I think something that we’re going to have to change, I guess, collectively as an industry is. A lot of people start with a channel and they start being siloed.

So I learned how this channel works great. It worked really well for the early and I’ll call it middling days of search when search was for all intents and purposes, direct mail. And now it’s evolving to be more of a considered a true marketing channel. So we’re looking a lot of our trainings and how we build people up from ground zero when they have, you know, when they have next to no background or are coming from a different industry, it’s should we teach them how to be search experts first or marketers first?

And I think it’s evolving into a little bit of, especially as all of these walled gardens are building walls, even though they’re connected, still, it’s actually not unlike my house where I’m connected to my neighbor and I can hear them through the walls. But it’s figuring out how that information aligns and where, I mean, look at yourself as a human.

And I’ve, I’ve used a metaphor for. Years of my own personal journey and buying a new pair of pants and like how many different touch points there and how many different thoughts there are and how many different things there are. And it’s not

Frederick Vallaeys: too many touch points when you’re buying pants.

Aaron Levy: They’re a nice pants.

It took a little while, but understanding how to be a better marketer and where a search or an act. someone going to Google shopping or a different CSA, where that fits in and their, I guess, human journey. I won’t even say customer journey, like their journey as a person and where you land is more important to understand now than it may have been in the past where it’s like, well, where are they searching for?

Like, okay, let’s put it in your copy.

Frederick Vallaeys: And so, you know, Tenuity does a lot more than just Google ads, right? Like Amazon and marketplaces.

Aaron Levy: Yeah. We’re basically full, full service, digital media, and some non digital media is expanding too.

Frederick Vallaeys: So how, how do you guys bring together or jump over the wall gardens from one system to the next?

And how do you take a learning from one and bring it to another?

Aaron Levy: Yeah, I mean, we have our own internal data warehouse and a huge data services team, which not everyone has. And frankly, even that is not perfect. We actually just hired someone who’s literally a technologist. So his job is to figure out what everyone is doing.

Doing and like, how are we getting remarketing ads? If Alexa is not listening to me. But what we usually do is we try to co educate people. So we still believe in we call it our experts only approach that like if you do search, you do search. If you do shopping, you do shopping. But over the past year or two, we’ve done a ton more in terms of co education.

We currently have a program that we call mavens and training where people will work in a different division for six months or intern in it or something like that. Mhm. So then we can have that communication process. I mean, you think about it more literally from a search perspective, we have a luxury of having a really robust and strong email and CRM team.

So that means from a search perspective, you think about we use the metaphor of asking for marriage on a first date and okay, like we want people to buy. Otherwise we lose them. We don’t have that problem. So instead we start to have thoughts or discussions about okay, what keywords terms people should we drive to an email capture?

Versus which one should we go for a direct sale? And those people that we drive to an email capture. Okay, we’ll put that on a list and have it in this drip campaign. And when that drip campaign happens, okay, then our display team can activate off of that audience because we know that they’ve gotten the email.

So we can show the creative that reflects the email. Obviously it doesn’t work that well for every client, but the general principles https: otter. ai Less about understanding every single cap tactic and capability and whatever that a division has, but more of understanding of, okay, how can what I do plug in over there and how does that plug into what a human is doing relative to what our businesses are doing?

Frederick Vallaeys: And another theme that we see coming up here as a, the shift to first party cookies The demise of the cookie down the line. And meaning that more of the data will just live within these silos of Amazon and Facebook and Google. And so you might have access to some user based data within those systems, but not really outside of it.

Right. And that’s, that’s already happening because of the third party cookies going away. Well, do you have any thoughts on. Like how that’s going to play out and what we can do now to prepare for that?

Aaron Levy: That’s that’s why we hired nourish. Mean look it’s going to be it will be a lot more of first party data the information that you collect And how you can use it?

Obviously privacy with ccpa Which is certainly a a lead in to what the rest of the world is going to be basically you can Ask a company what they have and tell them to get rid of it. But in turn, I believe.

Frederick Vallaeys: California Consumer Protection Act or something.

Aaron Levy: Correct, correct. That’s

Frederick Vallaeys: the first one in the United States.

It’s kind of like the GDPR, which is the European data protection.

Kirk Williams: Which ironically, to me, in that whole thing you have legislators in one hand trying to prevent and limit the power. Of these mega corporations, right? And legislators on the other hand are giving them all of the power by saying, Hey, now they’re the only ones who can have the data with the first party cookies.

And, and I, I, I kind of foresee more of the data as currency thing that Aaron mentioned as well with, with this. Yeah.

Aaron Levy: Yeah. We’re starting, I mean, we’re, we’re seeing a lot of, of rise and we were talking about this Fred a bit, a bit before. But we’re seeing a rise in, we were talking about a rise in software companies, just for Google ads management, whatever, which I still find fuzzy.

But what I see a little more is that there will be a rise in like data matching platforms, like things like live ramp and folks like that, as best as they can operate within GDPR figuring out how you can. Take the important data out of the walled garden that you do need to tie an information, all that information together.

But I will also say that I’m honestly in a way, a bit encouraged by a cookie list world because it’s my last little soapbox rant. I think it’ll make us better marketers. It’s too easy right now to say a person put something in the cart, let’s show it to them until they die. I think, I think now it’ll, it’ll make us be a little bit smarter and a little bit craftier and look at.

Things like branding, messaging, all that sort of feel. And it’ll be a little bit less binary of did Kirk buy or did Kirk not buy.

Kirk Williams: And, and to piggyback off on that, it’s not simply just that, ah, we had that super amazing, accurate data that we could remarket to them all day with. And now we don’t have it. I think what you’re saying, Aaron, is it makes us better markers because there probably was actually more distrust that we had with what that data is actually telling us, then we oftentimes supposed when we had the data, i.

e. putting too much trust in our attribution model or in the fact that, yeah, because it was the fifth visit and then they put it in the cart and then. We show it to them in average of 14 times and they, they come to us. Potentially we’re going to just be better because we’re not focused on those things and the potential data issues that come with that, but actually getting back to marketing, like you’re saying.

Well,

Aaron Levy: I mean, I can’t remember if you were in this fight, but I know I got into a fight with Brad a while ago on Twitter where I was like, so I ordered a bunch of wine at the beginning of the pandemic. Cause why not? And I immediately, I started counting the number of wine ads that I got and it was something like 60 or 70 different companies that were all advertising the same things.

And I’m like, I know that I’m in an audience that like people who buy wine and like, I’m probably lookalike for all these different wine vendors. Cause like, it’s wine, but I’m still getting like in market to buy wine. I bought three cases. I don’t need any more. Some people would argue if they’re really into wine, but I mean, it’s the same sort of thing.

Like we’re, Our buckets are so binary in the way that a lot of these companies work with audiences is kind of clunky for as much data as we have. So in theory, hiding that data might be a good thing.

Frederick Vallaeys: Right. And I think you’re both saying something very interesting here. Right? So Kirk is talking about the 14 touch points and blah, blah, blah.

And like that. Maybe a signal like us as humans. We don’t really have the capability to go and look for those touch points and make meaningful connections from them. So in that regard, machine learning, very useful, but then Aaron, to your point, I mean, if that person is dead then, or that’s when you stop advertising to them, right?

But sort of the human intuition of how much wine can Aaron possibly drink if he lives in a household of Two, three people,

Aaron Levy: just me. And don’t issue a challenge like that. If you don’t want to know the answer

Kirk Williams: and weirdly enough in a world where Facebook profiles persist after someone passes away, they can be marketed to after they’ve passed away.

That’s weird.

Frederick Vallaeys: And I’m sure you can use the credit card you got for the dog because the company didn’t know there was a dog to pay for the dead person’s wine.

Aaron Levy: The old, the old Simpsons Santos L helper. The

Kirk Williams: Simpsons. That’s what we need to ask. If we say, Hey, what’s Google going to be like in two years, we just need to keep watching the Simpsons because they literally predict everything always.

Oh, Aaron’s Aaron’s the big Simpsons fan.

Aaron Levy: I’m not as big as Elizabeth. She wins. If anybody thinks they’re a Simpsons, like wizard, just go ask Elizabeth Marsden a trivia question you think is really good and just watch her laugh at you that like, oh, no, of course, like I knew that when I was 10.

Frederick Vallaeys: Hey, let’s do that.

Let’s have a PPC town hall trivia session.

Kirk Williams: We have to talk in only Simpsons quotes the whole time on the topic.

Frederick Vallaeys: So yeah, we’re coming to the end of our time here. It’s been fantastic talking to you guys. I do want to give you a chance to you know, share anything that you feel is important that maybe we haven’t touched on.

And Pedro is asking a question again. What do you think? So not what are you predicting, but what would you love for Google to build in 2021?

Aaron Levy: Who goes first, me or you? You go ahead if you have

Kirk Williams: an answer. I’m formulating mine.

Aaron Levy: I

Frederick Vallaeys: mean, for me, I’ll actually go first, right? So I think there’s a lot of stuff that’s still missing in the APIs. As of about two days ago, I think the new API is now officially live and supposedly fixed because it was officially live two years ago and it was completely broken.

So they pulled it back. All right. So my hope for 2021 is that a lot of the stuff we don’t have API access to like competitor data in the auctions that we get access to all of that so that we can start building some of the simple automations that our customers still depend on to make smarter decisions.

So for as long as we’re able to. Do strategy and actually have some level of control. I’d love to see more stuff in the API.

Aaron Levy: I really want new, I won’t say control. Cause I already said that’s a bad word, so I can’t say that I want it. What I would really love is a lot more messaging options, especially as it pertains to audiences.

So In the current state now, like you can sorta have custom audiences based on like region, geo, whatever, but it’s still really clunky. So what I really love especially if expanded text ads go away next year, which. Maybe next year, maybe 2022, but they’re, they’re on their way out. You know, if we had a little bit more than an if or statement for our ads.

So right now it’s, it’s again, binary, like you can pick one of two options. Either a person is an audience, they see this ad or they’re not in the audience and then they see this ad. I want a lot more buttons to push. I want a lot more options If, if a person is in New York and has seen, has been to our site before, show them this creative person is in Pennsylvania, has not been to our site before, show them this set of creative. That was, I think simplify things a good deal.

Frederick Vallaeys: Well, I’ll simplify it. I don’t know about that, Aaron. So it’s like, that’s the hyper segmentation. You’re going to need to do that. Don’t you

Kirk Williams: see that as being part of what they’re doing? Or I’m sorry, Fred, I interrupted.

Frederick Vallaeys: I love the idea. I mean like this is absolutely what we would love to do as advertisers, but making it.

Not spin out of control with a million campaigns and basically the problem that google has always had is like they give you a Campaign this is like geo targeted. So that’s where you put your message for new york It’s a different campaign for california Right, but what about the intersections now? Like what if you add the time dimension to it or the audience dimension?

Now, each of these campaigns needs to be split five ways and each of those needs to be split 10 ways and eventually you get into a nightmare of a monster where you can’t get the data out anymore. You can’t control it. And if you’re to new it and you have an API in the development team, great, you can do it right.

But

Aaron Levy: well, I think that’s the that’s the challenge that we’re facing is to if you’ve ever run a test before, where if you have an ad with a geo location name in the ad versus not the one with the name of the ad works better. Realistically, the only way to do that right now, yes, they have location feeds.

No, they’re not great. The only way to have that level of customization would be to create a campaign for every neighborhood and every city and every country. And there

Frederick Vallaeys: you can use the business data, the customizers,

Aaron Levy: does, but you still have to hand build it. So you would have to build it and they would have to map the person to the right location.

So in theory, the only way to quote unquote accurately do it. would be to build again, a campaign for every place in the world, which no one will ever do. So I think to your, your comment before about do I want to do this for everyone ever? No, but if, okay, like we’ll use the shoes example or the, or the one example, excuse me, like, okay, like if this person is in market, We want to like kind of go after him for like 10 days and then we’ll figure out if they’re just in market and already bought something.

It’s a retargeting audience. Like, okay, we’ll go after him for 30 days. If it’s an XYZ audience, a lot of those levels we would. We would like, and think we would get a lot out of, even if we wouldn’t use all of them at one time.

Kirk Williams: See, it’s funny because what you’ve described, I see that as being the potential, I agree, we’re not there yet, but the potential, and in fact, we’re like responsive search and responsive display ads kind of came from.

And, and. I can envision a future where that’s where a human and automation work together. Phenomenally is the human comes in and says, here are the specific images. Here are the specific headlines. We want to make sure here are the specific, you know, all of the stuff. Really kind of works through that.

And then to me, the automation comes in with the data that we don’t have access to, or maybe even couldn’t even if we had access to couldn’t, you know, make the decision on with, with all the different data points. And they say, Hey, this person, we, we have seen. That they are 70 percent more likely to click on an ad with a blue background.

They are 90 percent more likely to click on an ad that talks about free shipping. Therefore we’re taking their elements. And now for this person, the machine says here is a blue background headline about free shipping image. That’s probably going to be more attractive to them because. The automation knows that as well.

I, I see that as like actually a really awesome combination of human automation. I don’t, you know, we’re still not quite there yet. You still see automation kind of get some really weird stuff in those ads, but I guess that’s where I’m on a hopeful side, see that as being a way where we use all of Google’s little data and all the stuff they have.

And we’re, we’re still controlling the message, the branding, things like that as well. So,

Frederick Vallaeys: All right, Google, there you have it. Our wishlist for 2021. Because we want to be marketers and we need some data to make right decisions. Well, Aaron, Kirk, thank you for joining. It’s been a true pleasure. Really lively conversation.

Thank you everyone for watching. We’ll be back next week with a favorite topic, bid management. These two guys have a lot to say on that as well, but we have a different panel of speakers for next week. So join us then. If you want Get a hold of these guys, ppckirk on Twitter, big A little A for Eric.

Anything else you guys want people to do? Visit the Nuity website, visit ZATO Marketing. If you want help with marketing, come to one of us. Team SKU’s, SKU’s a good deal larger where we focus on enterprise level clients for Kirk, you said what you’re great at.

Kirk Williams: It’s going to say, yeah, if you’re enterprise go to to nudity, if you’re smaller budgets, come to ZATO.

So how about that? zatomarketing. com.

Frederick Vallaeys: Thanks guys. And